This week and next, Scott and Karl explore Joel Salatin’s book Polyface Micro: Success with Livestock on a Homestead Scale. 

Joel Salatin and his family own and operate Polyface Farm in Virginia’s Shenandoah Valley. The farm produces pastured beef, pork, chicken, eggs, turkeys, rabbits, lamb, and ducks, servicing roughly 6,000 families and 50 restaurants in the farm’s bioregion. Karl says, “His absolute conviction and his brilliance at systems come through. He figures out a way that it can work.”

Salatin believes that success with domestic livestock does not require large land bases. Whether you live in an apartment in a big city or on a farm as a seasoned homesteader, you’ll find tips and inspiration as Joel coaches you towards more abundant living. Brought to you by onlinegreatbooks.com. 

Transcript

Scott Hambrick 0:09
Welcome to the online great books podcast brought to you by onlinegreatbooks.com where we talk about the good life, the great books, great conversation, and great ideas Hello,

Brett Veinotte 0:31
dear listeners, this is Brett, the producer, the online great books podcast. Welcome back to the show. This week and next Scott andKCarl will explore Joel solitons 2021 book, Polyface Micro subtitle of the book success with livestock on a homestead scale. Many of you might hear that and say, Okay, this subject matter is not for me. I think there’s something here for everyone. Saletan does a really fine job scaling his principles down all the way to a city apartment. And you might push back further and say my apartment building does not allow livestock, check your lease. I’m sure there’s nothing in there about livestock as a matter of fact, either way, I think that everybody can find something to take away from this book. And Spring is here. And more broadly speaking, this season is here to get serious about food autonomy. So you might just find some inspiration here. And Scotland car will also personalize much of the subject matter of this book on two different scales. So you might find that interesting as well. Come back next week, please, for part two, as always, thank you for your time and attention, and we’ll get right to it.

Scott Hambrick 1:49
I’m Scott Hambrick.

Karl Schudt 1:51
I’m Karl Schudt

Scott Hambrick 1:52
Good morning, Karl.

Karl Schudt 1:53
Good morning, Scott. It’s it’s early in the morning. Yeah,

Scott Hambrick 1:56
it’s early for early for recording. It’s not early for other things. But it’s early to record something that other people are going to listen to.

Karl Schudt 2:06
I need to turn up my dial, or I’m going to seem even less excited than I usually do. What dial so what are we reading today?

Scott Hambrick 2:14
Joel Salatin, his newest book, Polyface micro success with livestock on a home stated scale. Yeah, we’ll talk about this, it’s gonna be hard for me to talk about this because I just finished another of his books, pastured poultry profits. And it’s gonna be hard for me to separate in my brain where I read what you know.

Karl Schudt 2:40
I have the salad bar beef book if you need to borrow.

Scott Hambrick 2:43
Isn’t that one that everyone should own? Should not have my own copy of that.

Karl Schudt 2:47
You should, but I’m just being kind and offering you. I thank you. I’m not sure if I’m going to have beef. I’m going to try.

Scott Hambrick 2:56
So today is going to be the Salatin book. And of course we’ll do this in two parts. And then after that we’re going to do Did you agree with this list in Slack, Karl, we talked about maybe? Yeah. Robert Hutchins.

Karl Schudt 3:08
Yeah, we’re gonna do Hutchins and then I’m not at the John Dewey challenge. I’ll, I’ll struggle through. I don’t want me to. And then. And then dear listener, The Silmarillion. Yeah. Which is like, again, I just got my copy. It’s the book, I think. I don’t think Scott will be indifferent to it. either love it. Or he’s gonna say, why’d you have me read this crap.

Scott Hambrick 3:38
I’m getting one more like that. Like, I’ve always kind of been that way. And I’m getting more that way. But for the listener, we’re going to read Robert Hutchins essay, The Great Conversation, it’s in the first volume of The Great Books of the Western world. Set by Encyclopedia Britannica. You can find it out there as a PDF on the interwebs. And then John Dewey’s essay, challenge to liberal thought from the book, the later works 1925 to 1953, volume 25 of Dewey’s terrific thought, so you can go find that thing and great conversations went on 50 pages, the Dewey pieces, map, 15 pages, something like that. Y’all gotta read along.

Karl Schudt 4:24
And if you want to the Silmarillion is not short. It wasn’t really intended for publication. It’s, well, maybe it was, but not for a long time. It’s the the world building for Lord of the Rings. It’s got stuff that’s good in its own right. It’s a little bit weird. Tolkien was a weird guy.

Scott Hambrick 4:46
Yeah. I started reading that thing last night. Yeah, yeah. I’ll save it there.

Karl Schudt 4:51
say thoughts.

Scott Hambrick 4:53
Oh, I just started it. I went ahead and read that letter from Tolkien to his editor. And that’s all I’ve read so far. Which is interesting, you know, we don’t always get to see the author’s intent. There’s a discussion in our telegram chat, Karl, good a t.me/scott stream if you want in on on the edge Lord, talk telegram about authorial intent and like critical theory. And there are folks, you know, that quoted, I think it was Hemingway. He said, You know that the fish is a fish. The old man is an old man. I’m just reading Hey, after we read The Silmarillion you know what I was thinking about? You said a children’s book and I think that would be good. I was thinking you know, we had to read like the was it Howard Pyle Robin Hood?

Karl Schudt 5:43
Or those when I was a kid,

Scott Hambrick 5:44
or maybe the more darter? Yeah, one of those because that’s some more English myth that Tolkien found wanting. You know

Karl Schudt 5:57
what? Cuz it’s French. Well,

Scott Hambrick 6:00
it’s Robin Hood, French. Come on.

Karl Schudt 6:02
No, Robin Hood’s not French. But King Arthur stuff is

Scott Hambrick 6:06
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, one of those might be good. We also threw out some other things like Clausewitz. This is before we knew we’re at war, by the way, given which, you know, I want to finish reading the Shelby Foote thing. And also want to read all of Gibbon, you know, so maybe we can find a way to Well, that’s

Karl Schudt 6:29
a big task.

Scott Hambrick 6:31
I’m here to play, man.

Karl Schudt 6:33
Come on. So Joel Salatin. and who is he? Oh, you’re asking me, I’m asking you. So you can tell the audience this is exposition. He is the lunatic farmer

Scott Hambrick 6:43
with the engineers heart from I think it’s Swoope or Swope, Virginia. His dad was a pretty sharp guy. And they bought his dad bought a big ranch. I think it was in Venezuela. And the government, essentially, they ended up fleeing, they’re fleeing Venezuela, and came back to the United States. And his dad bought this property in Virginia, where they started kind of hobby farming, maybe. And he’s been he’s been working on that on that land since I think 61. When he was eight, he got his first animals. He’s still there. Now. He was born in 57. So what does that make him 60s 65 years old. He is sort of in the vanguard, maybe of the regenerative agriculture movement in here in the United States, to kind of give people an idea of just how he be super thrifty. He makes almost everything they use from scratch. And he leaves nothing undone. So he will he he grazes, 1000 head of cattle, moves them once or twice a day, three or four days later, he moves 1000s of laying hens onto the same paddock that the chicken that the beef were on, so that the chickens can eat them fly larvae in the poop and scratch that all in real good. And then he’ll follow that up with turkeys. And then sometimes you’ll follow that up with pigs. Because he wants everything turned to protein. And he’s super, super efficient. In the

Karl Schudt 8:21
homesteading world there. There are all sorts of folks out there, this is one of the best things that you can use YouTube for, I think, is to watch these people who are growing stuff on their land or making use of their land and figuring out what they can do with it. But there are a lot of small scale people. So Justin Rhodes is on 10 acres. And you know, there’s people on three acres and you know, there’s gardening channels, and you can see all this stuff that people have done. Well, there’s a few people that are doing it on a large scale. And solitons one of them and Greg Judy’s, another one that are showing you that you can get a lot of food out of the land. I was thinking about this. So in the news, dear listener, you may have noticed that there is as of our writing, there is war in Europe as of our recording, not that again. Yeah, that’ll thing.

Scott Hambrick 9:16
But it’s just some noblemen and their retinue. Like doing hand to hand right doesn’t have anything to do with us, right? I mean, we can just tender stuff.

Karl Schudt 9:26
There’s lots of oil over there. There’s lots of wheat over there. There’s lots of fertilizer that we import from over there. So I’m not sure that we can ignore it. Well, there’s nothing we can do about it. But the problem is, when you have all these inputs from foreign sources, the food that you are eating depends on a whole lot of other inputs. What if those inputs get cut off?

Scott Hambrick 9:54
If Yeah, he he grows things with no inputs. He has 1000 head of cattle out He raises. I don’t know, the five digits of broiler chickens a year, I mean, in excess of 10,000 broiler chickens a year. He creates, I don’t know, 1000 dozen eggs a week, something like that. I mean, great big numbers. No veterinary bills. No nitrogen.

Karl Schudt 10:20
Right. Right. That’s important. So the old time the old timey structure of the farm is kind of what he is recovering where you had. You had cows, and you had pigs, and you had chickens. And you had those three, for a reason. Yeah. Because they supply you with everything you need to grow the cows, the pigs and the chickens. You get the compost from the animals and put it on your field. It’s the way things used to be. It might be the way things have to be in the future. If world supplies get disrupted, and you know, fertilizer goes up 20,000% or something, you know,

Scott Hambrick 11:03
more or this 200%

Karl Schudt 11:06
Yeah, and he can’t grow corn without that stuff.

Scott Hambrick 11:09
Should I tell my chicken poop story? Sure. I love stories about chicken poop. Yeah, you know, like all the hot fencing talk from our last show. If there are any listeners that don’t enjoy this, just go find another fucking show. Go listen to the Hillsdale College when they will, they’ll just drone on. You can go get all that mediocre stuff, or

Karl Schudt 11:29
no, no, no, no, this is what you should do. Dear listener, you should think, hmm. It is possible that there are things that I’m not interested in, in which I should be interested. Karl’s so generous, and chicken poop. chicken poop might be one of those things.

Scott Hambrick 11:45
Yeah, I think it should be. I have a good friend, a guy whose work he’s a neighbor, man. And he’s become a good friend who gives me wood chips. And I have probably, I don’t really know 100,000 pounds of wood chips or something like that. I’ve used them to mulch all my fruit trees and nut trees. And I have a lot of those. And actually, I’ve used that much already, but that this is just piled up. And to get compost to work. I would like to compost this compost is different than just rotting. Rotting can be fungal, and doesn’t really create soil in the same way. Anyway, I want it to be compost. And so for it to be compost, you really need about 30 parts carbon to one part nitrogen. Well, wood chips are about 500 parts carbon to one part nitrogen, so I need a whole bunch of nitrogen. Like a lot. And when I was a kid, he used to be able to go around here, this north northeast Oklahoma, northwest Arkansas, Tyson chicken country used to be able to go to the chicken farm. And that farmer would just load you up and be glad that you took that stuff, that chicken poop out of there. So I started calling around and from what I have come to understand, Arkansas and Oklahoma change their laws, so that you can’t really clean out your own chicken house. Now, I think this is actually ultimately a good move, yet to be a licensed contractor to do this. And the reason they licensed these contractors is because they don’t want that poop to end up in our watersheds. We have some beautiful creeks and rivers around here that had become not so beautiful and become algae lit written and the temperature in the water had risen and so on because of all the nitrogen in it come from all the chicken runoff. So this has put a stop to this. And I’ve seen it myself in the creeks that we’ve been swimming holes that we go to. Anyway, so I started calling some of these litter removal people they call it chicken litter, they don’t call it poop. And nobody has any chicken poop. And I say, Well, why not? And I said, Well, you know, propane prices have almost doubled this winter. And most of the chicken producers are leaving the litter in the chicken houses because when it decomposes, it makes heat and it reduces their propane heating bill. Now, goodness, when it does that, when it decomposes, it’s making ammonia and other noxious problems that affect the health of the bird. But you know, everything’s a compromise right? So they’re trying to keep the heat in the chicken house this winter. One of the gentlemen I talked to he said he had equipment to operate 11 litter removal crews. So this would be like, skid steer loaders, dump trailers for semi trucks, disinfecting equipment, someone he said he had equipment for 11 of these crews. He only had me and read two of them. He said so these farmers he says these chickens these operators don’t call them farmers. He said these operators gonna call me they’re gonna win Other places cleaned out. And he said, I just can’t get to it. I mean, there’s only, you know, two out of my lab and cruise around, and it’s gonna be a while. And he said, but I’ll put you on the waiting list. If you want some poop, I’ll put you on the waiting list. And I said, Well, I want you know, 50 turns 25 to 50 turns. In one of the guys, oh, well, there’s a opportunity. So I could probably work you in with a smaller order like that. I said, small order, what’s your average order? He said, Oh, 10,000 tons. He had 100,000 tons on his list ahead of me. Then I said, By the way, if you’re gonna put me in list, what’s this gonna cost me? He said, Oh, it’s running about $40 a ton. And I said, I don’t think that’s actually the price if I if if I call you and want some and and you tell me this $40 a ton, I get my checkbook out, and then you tell me you don’t have any. That’s not really what the price is, is it? He laughed? I said, how much of it would show up if I paid $150 a ton? And he said, Well, you’d probably get some more. Well, then we talk a little bit, he said he had 100,000 tonnes on his waiting list. And the reason he’s quoting $40 is because his average orders much larger and he’s selling this to row crop farmers in the demand for chicken poop. So not only is he not able, not only is one the chicken producer not releasing the litter because of the heat and propane cost issue. And two, does he know the labor problem?

Three nitrogen fertilizer,

Karl Schudt 16:46
his labor problem.

Scott Hambrick 16:50
It’s not clear to me. A lot of the gimmies are gone. You know, that caused the labor problems to 2020 and 2021. I really don’t know why. It seems like if you’ve got a you know, a chauffeur’s license, you can drive a semi truck that I mean, he puts you’re asked to work tomorrow. And it’d be short haul stuff. It wouldn’t be overnight over the road stuff. You’d be home every evening. It seems like it’d be pretty good job. And the guy drive at the trucks not in the chicken house, you know, breathing chicken litter? I don’t know why it doesn’t make sense to me. Well, some of it is.

Karl Schudt 17:25
Yeah, well, we had incentives for people not to work in the last few years. And what you get from the story is that there are lots of inputs into making the food that you eat, and all of them are stressed, all of them are stressed. All of them are stressed. So there’s one more chunk I hadn’t gotten to cost is high now. I’m sorry, I’ll be quiet and let you finish.

Scott Hambrick 17:49
The one more chunk hadn’t gotten to it’s he has a not only can they not get the litter, the demand for it has gone way up because nitrogen fertilizer has almost doubled in price. These real cup farmers can’t afford to buy the nitrogen. They can’t do it. So they’re trying to get the chicken poop. Welcome to find out they can’t even buy it at any price. So things are getting bad.

Karl Schudt 18:09
Yeah. And so what happens to the corn crop? If you can’t get nitrogen fertilizer? The price is going to go well, and this the supply is going to go down because people aren’t going to farm it because they can’t make any money off of it.

Scott Hambrick 18:22
Yeah. To to the Austrian economist. That’s what I said. Yeah, whatever. Anyway, so I don’t know to the Austrian

Karl Schudt 18:31
economist. That’s right,

Scott Hambrick 18:32
the price goes up means that supply had to have gone down, or the or the demand went up. But uh, yeah,

Karl Schudt 18:39
I’m sorry. I’m a literary guy. I’m not an economics guy. Yeah. You have to walk me through this stuff. But why do I care if the corn price goes up?

Scott Hambrick 18:50
I don’t eat corn. Everything is corn.

Karl Schudt 18:53
Yeah, so all of your beef eats corn. You’re cooking oil is corn. If it’s not soy, food prices going up? Seems like it’s gonna happen. The nitrogen fertilizer comes from, isn’t it petroleum byproducts,

Scott Hambrick 19:10
they have to burn a lot of natural gas to fix that nitrogen in those Najin pellets, nodules.

Karl Schudt 19:16
Right? So if oil prices go up, fertilizer prices go up. And if our current farming relies on pouring nitrogen into the ground, you can see that this is an unsustainable thing. We talked about this with the Schumacher book a while back. So where’s your food gonna come from? Maybe I’m tinfoil hat crazy and everything will just magically be okay like it has for the last 100 years. But through most of human history, through most of human history, there’s famines. Yeah. They’re big events. There haven’t been for the last 100 years because we’ve been pouring nitrogen onto the fields. So, reason to say that is a book like this Polyface micro and things that people like Joel Salatin are doing is stuff that you might have to do. It might not just be a hobby for weird potato pilled people, okay, it might be something that you have to do, or you’re not going to get chicken eggs. Or you’re not going to get meat and you’ll have to eat crickets. Because that’s all that they’ll be. Enjoy. Enjoy it. Not me, brother.

Scott Hambrick 20:35
Well, you know what, even that cricket thing is rubbish. Like, that’d be farmed on site. Gotta eat something. You know, so you want you want the most efficient way to turn that nitrogen into protein. And I think I think Selten has done that. I don’t know how big his farm is. You know, Greg, God will tell you is a 1600 20 acres the last time I knew. And in he’ll tell you how many beef cattle he produces in a year and all that. I think solitons is actually a little smaller than that. I know that he owns. I don’t know this, I believe that he owns around four or 500 acres, then it leases additional farmland around him. I’m sure he’s been acquiring land when he could. And a lot of his farmland has timber on it. He’s running 1000 head of cattle on probably something like 1000 acres. In addition to all the chickens and pigs and rabbits that they produce on there. He is very efficient at turning nitrogen into protein. And then when you realize that he’s not getting nitrogen from off of the farm, what he’s doing is absolutely miraculous. Yeah, you’re not going to get crickets. So he environmentally cheaply, a salad and gets you grass fed beef.

Karl Schudt 21:54
No. No, and, and the point about the understanding a little bit about how modern agriculture works is it will disabuse you of the notion that if only we don’t eat meat, everything will be fine. It’s garbage. If you don’t eat meat, you don’t have the critters on your farm that are producing the manure that lets you compost that lets you grow the grain. Not to mention a monoculture. How many critters get killed when you plow up that field every year for a monoculture? Corn or wheat farm?

Scott Hambrick 22:32
Trillions of worms and everything.

Karl Schudt 22:36
And mice and you’re not you’re not being friendly to the animal. Vegetarians. You want to be a vegetarian, for taste reasons, fine. If you want to be a vegetarian, for ethical reasons, I’ll say it, you’re being stupid. Yeah, you’re not even accomplishing what you think you’re accomplishing. Unless you’re growing all your own veggies and only eating them, you’re contributing to the death of animals every time you open your mouth and chew. So get over it, realize that you’re going to have to kill other beings in order to eat. And then you can figure out how to do it in a good way, in a way that honors the pigness of the pig, for example. Yeah, that’s what he says. And realize that that there’s a cycle there and you’re part of it. And it’s just frustrating me,

Scott Hambrick 23:26
Sam Walton is a he was a newspaper man. He wrote for? Well, I don’t remember he wrote for a small newspaper for a number of years before he was able to quit his off the farm job and go do this full time. So he fancies himself a writer, among other things, I say fancy stuff that’s not fair. He is among a writer among other things, and he’s written so many, many books. And one of the bad things about Polyface micro the book is that it doesn’t tell you don’t get enough of his philosophy. This book is for people that already understand what he does and wants. They want to do it themselves or he’s got a book on Polyface designs, which is about all the equipment that he is designed to run on his property. Salad bar beef is one about poultry farming. He’s got one called everything I want to do is illegal war stories from the local food front. Family Friendly farming on and on and on. He’s written I don’t know, he’s probably written 20 books. His views on agriculture are probably spelled out better in some of those are in all of those taken on hold than they are in this book here. He wants the homesteader to have diversity, biological diversity on their plot, even if that’s a Manhattan apartment. He advocates around and chickens and rabbits in Manhattan apartments. In this but

Karl Schudt 25:01
yeah, they’re not going to do it but they could. Yeah. And he tells them how to how they could do it. So I know you’re out there probably not too many in our audience but the shop local folks, the you’re worried about your carbon footprint. Okay. Good. How much did it take to get those eggs in your refrigerator? A lot. Because you know, if you live in the middle of Manhattan, there’s no farms. Last farm in Gosh, Cook County had their last agricultural state fair, or county fair in 1923. I think, wow. Because there’s just nobody doing hardly anybody doing farming in Cook County anymore. So all your food has been trucked in? Well, trucks run on what?

Scott Hambrick 25:56
Diesel?

Karl Schudt 25:59
Yeah, so you’re having your food shipped in, so that you don’t have to see how it’s made, which is part of the problem. So you think that that meat and eggs and butter and milk and all of these things that you eat, even your almonds, milk, you think that all of this stuff just kind of leaps to your shelf? No, it’s got to be farmed. And the further away it is, the more carbon it takes to get it to you. So maybe you ought to raise a chicken or two in your apartment in Manhattan. And you could if the laws would allow it. And if you can’t do that you could probably do rabbits and make some of your own food. You know, you could release some of the pressure on this supply chain. In the future, I think it’s going to have to happen 10 years from now, I think it’s going to have to happen. He might as well get started.

Scott Hambrick 26:58
Let’s go.

Karl Schudt 27:03
Yeah, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe everything will magically be good. But the books all right. I could have helped him edit it. It could have used a little more structure. Sure. It’s all right. I feel like he sat down with a with a microphone and talked it into his computer probably. Which is fine. But his absolute conviction and his brilliance at as our friend Matt would say he’s brilliant that systems comes through. He figures out a way that it can work. And if it doesn’t work the first time he tweaks it. The coolest thing I sit in with my wife we’re watching what are the what does he call it the racking.

Scott Hambrick 27:42
He has all these fanciful names of devices.

Karl Schudt 27:46
Yeah, it’s kind of funny. So rabbit chicken, he has this rabbit chicken house where he’s doing dual use. I don’t remember the numbers but laying hens and rabbits in the same space. And the rabbit poop goes on the floor. And the chickens just love that. And they and they put wood chips on the bottom. And so it all turns into compost. It’s like a three layer system. So you get rabbit meat and you get chicken eggs. And you get compost for your garden which you need in a small area and

Scott Hambrick 28:20
you’re farming like vertically like on the Cube instead of on the square foot you know that he’s got the chicken rabbits above the chickens. And this is the system that he used it’s like it in the apartments like carnival

Karl Schudt 28:31
carnivorous hydroponics but it’s not factory farming the the rabbits are finished out on a grass. You know they’re the bunnies are hopping around in the grass. It’s not it’s not Tyson chicken now know where they DBQ the chickens and

Scott Hambrick 28:50
beneath all of his ideas. And Greg, Judy and Alan nation and so many so many Jim garish and so many of these people is that ultimately, all farmers are soil farmers. And if they don’t focus on creating soil, they’re destroying. And he believes he knows that to build soil. You can’t do the monoculture thing. You need biological diversity. The diversity word has been so ruined, I can’t even talk about it. I don’t even want to it just like catches in my throat. I cannot even utter it anymore girl. So if you’re in a rainforest, there would be 1000s of species per acre maybe. And on solitons farm or in a salad and style homestead. They’re still not going to be that many 1000s But they’re going to be these representative types. He’s going to have you’re going to have a ruminant animal. It’s going to be something that chooses curd. You’re going to have a cow you’re going to have a sheep you’re gonna have a goat. Then you’re going to have you want an animal with a crop. A gizzard. You’re gonna have some sort of a bird turkeys chickens. And then you need the omnivore you’re going to have a pig. In addition to the people, the ruminant does not have a very efficient gut. And that ends up working out real nice when you start looking at cow patties and pastures, the kinds of things that the cow doesn’t want to eat or can’t turn into protein or usable calories, the chicken can. And then the cat than the omnivore, the pig can use so much of the waste from the farm, like spoiled milk and kitchen scraps and so on that you end up having macaque because you have those three different gut types, you’re able to cover most of your ecological basis. So he just has to figure out how to do it on a small scale.

Karl Schudt 30:52
Yeah, and the digestive systems are the way that so if you think about it, Allan Savory talked about solar dollars. If you look at your, your yard, the sun is falling on your yard, I suppose you could cover it with solar panels, which can eat that. Or you can grow grass on it, you can grow plants on it. Well, you can’t, you could go out and eat the grass. Humans, you could go do that. But it would just go right through you would come out the other end just like it went in, you can’t digest it. So the magic it is it’s like magic, the magic of the solar power gets to you through those three digestive systems. And it makes it of the things that you can eat. It’s pretty cool. It’s very

Scott Hambrick 31:41
cool. So he, he’s, I can imagine that one of the main criticisms that people have about what he does is that well, one, you inherited that land, you dance about it. And he had he actually addresses that. It’s like, Yeah, that’s right. So what you know, now, what are you gonna do? You know? And then the other one is, you do this on big on a huge scale. I only have five acres. And this book is an answer to, to those people. Yeah, it starts off with talking about the benefits of just livestock stewardship, how it’s good for you to be an animal caretaker. I like that.

Karl Schudt 32:24
Yeah, I hope so. Cuz I think I’m gonna do it. I’m just checking to see if I’m allowed to have chickens in my current town. If you had a small backyard, you could do chickens. And so part of this book, it’s Polyface. Micro. So Polyface is it’s a weird name. I don’t like his names, but it’s the name of his farm. And so this is Polyface micro, it’s how to do what he does. On a small scale.

Scott Hambrick 32:53
The farm of many faces, Karl, did you see the logo on the back of the book? See, it’s a fish inside of a chicken inside of the cow inside of a tree.

Karl Schudt 33:05
Ah, no, I didn’t really think about it

Scott Hambrick 33:07
Riley pointed that out to me. I didn’t catch that.

Karl Schudt 33:11
Tinley Park officials are advancing a proposal that would ease rules for residents who want to keep chickens in their backyards.

Scott Hambrick 33:20
That’s gracious of them, isn’t it? Yeah,

Karl Schudt 33:24
current code permits live poultry in residential areas. So that’s good, but not within 100 feet of a school church, public street or home. Other than the residence of the owner of the animals

Scott Hambrick 33:35
seem to have a lot that’s 200 feet wide, at least. Yeah, yeah.

Karl Schudt 33:45
So they don’t want you growing food in town. No, for sanitary reasons or whatever. It’s for the children. I’m sure

Scott Hambrick 33:50
whatever. It’s they don’t want to hear the rooster in the morning. Now that guy can fire up a leaf blower right by your bedroom window. Saturday morning it Oh, 700 But you can’t have a rooster, you know? Stupid.

Karl Schudt 34:05
Yeah. So what that means is that and and I think the laws in that town are pretty permissive. As far as suburbs go. There’s not a lot of places you can do this. Why? So it means you have to bring your food in from other places. It means that you have to be dependent on the evil factory farms. When you have all this land that we’ve got, ah, it’s frustrating to me. We have lawns, I hate lawns. Lawns are the stupidest thing in the world. They’re stupid in Oklahoma. They’re They’re almost a stupid in Illinois. Lawns maybe not be stupid in England or Kentucky or someplace that has enough water because you have to put stuff you have to put stuff down on the grass to make it grow. And then you have to water it to make it grow. And then you have to cut it with a gas powered mower probably. Why don’t you just have a sheep

Scott Hambrick 35:13
be too much responsibility, Karl.

Karl Schudt 35:18
Yeah gets in the way of fortnight.

Scott Hambrick 35:22
I like this first chapter. He talks about livestock stewardship, he talks about the nature of animals. Most people don’t live around animals to, to really know about this. Cats and Dogs don’t count. There’s weird. Gray talks about how these animals he writes here that these animals live entirely in the moment. They live completely in the moment when a cow is in estrus. She doesn’t care about relationships or getting in the mood. She doesn’t care if the bull is handsome, and she certainly doesn’t care if the bowl helps in the kitchen. Now she’ll take whatever male with the right equipment gets to her first over and done and now time to eat more clover. That’s how he writes.

Karl Schudt 36:04
Yeah, so for me who has not grown up her and all of this stuff, I mean it. There are lots of sentences in here that make you think that gets you. I think in the right mindset, animals. With rare exceptions, animals have an unconditional appreciation for their caretakers to milk, the milk cow is always happy to see you. No matter the news, whether or if your spouse is upset with you, the chickens always run to see what you’re putting in their feeder. Animals love and respond to routine they despise and shy away from new things. So maybe you don’t even wear a different hat. He says you should try to walk in your animals shoes, try to figure out what they would do. He he waxes Thomistic. Here, on page four, I have to remind myself that my first responsibility is honoring the pigness of the pig and the chicken pneus of the chicken the bigness of the pig, the chicken is of the chicken, that’s an important thing. These animals have natures, we have, I think deceived ourselves into thinking that the human being has no nature, that you can be whatever you want to be that if you say you’re a unicorn, you in fact are a unicorn and other people need to respect that you are a unicorn. No, the pig is a pig. That chicken is a chicken. And they’re going to chicken and pig. They’re going to do what they do.

Scott Hambrick 37:30
They’re going to do what they do. You stopped reading there before he wrote out what they do. He stopped reading before he wrote, different animals have different needs and desires. Some like rabbits especially dislike loud noises. If you had ears that big, you wouldn’t like them either. Like,

Karl Schudt 37:47
I don’t like them. Yeah.

Scott Hambrick 37:50
You know, he looked, that’s what the rabbit Enos of rabbits are, is, you know, like their, their form and their essence and is all is all tied up in together inextricably. And he, he understands that. And, you know, we read all this stuff we read, and we have all these words for what, you know, the kinds of views that he’s espousing here. But he’s just really closely tied to reality. He looks at a cow. And he sees that they have eyes on the side of their head, and they can see 300 Almost 360 degrees around them. And then figures out how to approach them when he’s having to handle them based on where their eyes are and how they see things and how they process information. That’s wonderful in whether he has developed like, a personal philosophy that he could articulate about that. Dealing with these cattle every day and getting kicked or stepped on or smashed against the cow wall and get a rib broken would force you to develop that philosophy whether you could you know articulate it or not.

Karl Schudt 39:00
I really liked that about this. Do you think John Paul Sartre ever went

Scott Hambrick 39:03
to a farm not less there was an animal there he thought was sexy.

Physiology check.

Karl Schudt 39:18
There’s a bad joke I could make about him. He also could see 330 degrees around.

Scott Hambrick 39:26
That’s true. That’s true.

Karl Schudt 39:29
I’m sorry, Sean Paul, but I had to read your books. Okay.

Scott Hambrick 39:34
Animals had a prohibition against sex with him. Goodness listen to this. All the bees ants a packrat stockpile. This book is about the common farm critters, and they have a distinctive philosophy. You take care of me and I’ll give myself for you.

Karl Schudt 39:54
Oh yep. I think of Homer when I read this. So if you read Homer and why haven’t you if you haven’t, whenever they eat meat, you should pay attention to how they do it. They don’t have hamburgers. That you get through drive thru window, they have to take the critter in. They make offerings to the gods, they kill the thing. And then they roast it and celebrate. In other words, yes, it’s a living creature that you’re killing to eat, you should realize that and honor it, that that understand the magnitude of what you’re doing, you’re you’re eating. And this applies to vegetarians, too. You’re eating requires the death of other living beings. So you should realize that it’s easy to not realize that if you’re living in an urban area and getting all your food from a supermarket, yep. Like people who don’t want to people who don’t want to eat food that has faces, we have to make everything square. So it looks like it was rejected from a factory and not from a living being.

Scott Hambrick 41:13
I’m sorry, Sartre barely had a face. My wife had a conversation with someone this weekend that she was relating to me. broiler chickens, and we’re going to use the skeleton broiler shelter method. Put them on the pasture, move them every day, all that stuff. This lady said, You’re gonna, you’re gonna butcher these chickens. She’s 30. So yeah, yeah. A butcher. I’m not gonna help you do that. I don’t have any part of it. I want them

Where do you think everything you eat comes from? Like, what are you doing? What? What’s going on? You know, I mean, we’ve all kind of not all not everybody, but so many of us have run into that sort of an attitude. Like, just as long as as long as she doesn’t have to think about it. You know, she doesn’t care. Meanwhile,

Karl Schudt 42:09
well, we subcontract our, we subcontract our violence to other people,

Scott Hambrick 42:14
all of it. I’m ready to take some of it back in house, Carl. But if you go into this with this philosophy that he has, where you look at the animal, and you say, I will take care of you and then you give yourself and then you take care of them as he would have you take care of them. He says in here that you have to do all their thinking for them. And that you have to think about their safety, their hygiene, their diet, everything for them. And if you do that, they end up having a good life. And a part of pigness whether people like it or not, includes being cured for bacon. Yeah, so these chickens that we’re gonna raise, we’re gonna raise Cornish crosses, which is kind of a weird bird. But they’re gonna be on pasture. I didn’t have the best possible Cornish cross chicken life. Just before they go to freezer camp.

Karl Schudt 43:12
Well, you know, and then they get to ascend the hierarchy of being right

Scott Hambrick 43:16
which is my colon. When I eat them when I eat them.

Karl Schudt 43:21
They sound like a joke, but they get to become human. It’s not a bad thing. No. I like the point on on seven. I hadn’t really thought about it. But of course it’s right. If you care about such things in all the Bible, there are no named animals. Not a one. animals aren’t named

Scott Hambrick 43:47
we, you know, we went to Greg Judy’s school and you go do pasture walks with them. Go see his herd is floured? I don’t know he’s got about 1000 head of animals on his place right now. There is only one that’s named. That’s not true. His Guardian dogs are named. But of all the herbivores. There’s one that’s named. That’s grandma. He has a an old old cow. Who has I think she’s had 20 or 21 calves. And I think she’s like 19 years old. And he said, you know, she’s the only one they’re gonna retire. You know, she’s got a place of honor. But the rest of them are 426 or 318 or whatever.

Karl Schudt 44:35
The naming is anthropomorphizing. They’re not human. You can love them, but you have to realize what it is that you’re loving, loving. Yeah. A critter. I think that’s important.

Scott Hambrick 44:51
I want to read at the bottom of page seven. I was going to read that little bit you did there about the donkeys and all the animals in the Bible. But He says, While I believe animals are happier on pasture than in factory confinement houses, from their perspective, their situation is unchangeable animals can’t imagine a different life. They don’t read books or watch movies about different living situations we can imagine for the animal. And that’s why we have to make the hard decisions. They don’t know. So even the ones that are in the factory, can you know, confinement farming? Ball? I don’t want that for any of them. They don’t know any better. That’s some little, some little consolation about that.

Karl Schudt 45:30
Yeah. But what about the land? What this? Will this hurt the land? Know, the notion that this is 13 I don’t know how far in this book, we’re gonna get the notion that animals hurt. The landscape does not come from historically natural and wild ecosystems that comes from the human history dominated with improperly managed domestic livestock. If you do it right, it makes the soil better.

Scott Hambrick 46:00
The topsoil in Iowa and Nebraska in in the Great Plains is so deep and so good. Because buffalo shed on it for a million years.

Karl Schudt 46:14
Yeah, yeah, that so if I drive out, if I drive out to see you and I drive through Illinois, Missouri, Oklahoma, that whole area used to be covered with buffalo, the natural state, if you’re interested in nature, in preserving nature, you have to think what was the natural state of that land? The natural state of that land was to have millions of buffalo on

Scott Hambrick 46:41
it, high density rotational grazing groups.

Karl Schudt 46:45
Yeah, clumped in groups, because they had predators. Probably the Plains Indians were their predators, mostly, the job of the predator is actually to the benefit of the herd. Because you’re plucking off the sick and the weak, you’re plucking off the bad genetics, and eating them, and you’re making the rest of the herd healthier. So you’re clumping together, so they eat the hell out of that plot of land. And then they move. And then that plot of land regrows.

Scott Hambrick 47:15
They clip off the vegetation. They stomp what’s left of it down, and then poop on it. So they end up sequestering that carbon in the cellulose in those plants in the ground and making compost in place. They go to water, the creek, drink, drink, drink, drink, drink, and then go back out in the pasture to graze. And, you know, pee depends, you know, whether you’re a cow or a buffalo, somewhere between 10 to 40 gallons of that creek water out on the pasture every day. It’s perfect.

Karl Schudt 47:55
Yeah, well, we killed all the buffalo to get rid of the Plains Indians. And so it’s not in its natural state anymore. Yeah.

Scott Hambrick 48:04
And the answer isn’t to repopulate it with buffalo. It’s gone. And we get all these people to feed for now. But we can we can replicate that by you know, high density grazing of these, these animals. Charity and I had a pond built for us. I there was a pitiful little pond there that the beavers had destroyed and we had it all cleaned up and fixed and expanded and ended up just when you get done having a pond built and the boat bulldozer leaves. It’s a big old scar. The subsoil is brought to the surface, the topsoil topsoil won’t pack well enough to make a dam that holds water. So they have to get rid of that to scoop the topsoil away and put that somewhere. And then you know, they take a big dam home and just denude all everything you know. And it’s, you know, here the subsoil is clay and bring that clay to the surface and make a dam out of it. Anyway, Greg, God told me you just paid a whole lot of money you get that dirt out of that hole, you don’t want it back in that hole. You need to roll hay out on that all that exposed soil so that it wasn’t a road in that mud wash back down in that hole. So we got out we rolled out hay 10 round bales and sprayed it with a pitchfork all the way down to the very bottom of this hole. I don’t have any cows to stomp on and poop on it. We had a big old big old windy day come through here we’re 25 mile an hour winds straight line all day with gusts to 40 blew a lot of my hay off crawl because I didn’t have cows to stomp on it and put and poop on it. We get back out there spread out again and it rained and snowed on and stuck it down a little bit better. I’m glad we’ve got that pond, but until I get a bunch of cows around that thing to poop on it and stomp on that hay, and then roll out some more hay on it. It’s just, it’s just going to be a muddy scar for many, many years. You know this when you go through a housing edition and see a new home, they have to roll out sod. They expose, expose the subsoil, and it’s useless for growing things. They have to roll out, put some ball in some tops, and then roll sought out on it.

Karl Schudt 50:26
So we have a critter that I think it’s coming back this summer, I’m not really sure that the 17 year locust cicada, which is one of those critters that we’re supposed to eat in this new future. People will roast him, I don’t want to do it. But it’s not in any of the new subdivisions. It’s not in any of the new areas. Because they live most of their life in the soil. It’s this fascinating bug that that comes up every 17 years and all they can I don’t think they can even eat. All they can do is maybe have mouthparts, plant their eggs and die and you just walk in crunch and like back what the first town I lived in, is over by Indiana and it’s got more. It’s more forested. And sounds like chainsaws the whole summer when these things are out. It’s unbelievably loud is incredible creature these big like two and a half inch red eyed bugs. They bump into you they can’t bite you. They can’t sting you. They’re just kind of weird. But you plow the land. They’re all dead. Turn the soil over to make houses. They’re all dead. You are killing the soil that you’re living on. Which is kind of sad. I feel bad for the bugs.

Scott Hambrick 51:45
Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah, so his chapter the animal why outlines a lot of these lies. Why use the animals? PAGE 16 And we’re number three manure. He says soybeans are fine until you run out of fertility. Today soybeans are still pulling from centuries of manure accumulation. Yep, he says if cows were as efficient as soy beans, we’d have run out of beef centuries ago. Of course, cows are inefficient, but that’s what enables them to put in enough back to build soil. He says agronomist might disagree but in my view, carbon is the most important component of soil fertility. I think that’s right. It’s more important than the nitrogen without the not without the carbon. The soil won’t hold the nitrogen. You know, everybody knows more in on the internet, you know, labor telling me oh, you know, you don’t want to mulch and not you know, some people tell me Oh, you don’t want to mulch these trees have these woodchips because it’s a nitrogen sink. You know, any fertilizer that you put on those trees will be taken up by the woodchips and then composted and won’t be available to the roots of the of the tree. So if you listen to the agronomist, they would tell you to rake all of the grass away from the tree, pretty much denude the soil all the way out to the drip line of the tree so that when you apply nutrients, it goes straight to the roots of the tree. That’s short, that’s short sighted. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Now, it’s not if you’re trying to get a crop come in this fall. But if you’re worried about one in seven falls or 10 or 40, I was talking to Uncle Roy about this stuff the other day and he says well, you know, we were still a slash and burn agriculture. That’s what he said. I think that’s right. You know, the peoples of South America will, you know, chop down some rainforest and burn it and plant yams or whatever. Whatever manioc root or whatever the hell it is they plant and then when it won’t grow anymore, they just move on to slash another piece. Well for them, that’s a couple of seasons and for us maybe it’s been several decades, but it’s it’s the same. He’s right.

Karl Schudt 54:02
I was driving back. I’ve been doing a lot of driving and it’s mostly foreign country and I was looking at the cornfields it’s a weird thing that you drive past a cornfield in October there’s nothing green and there’s nothing green in it. It if you plant a garden, you know there are seeds everywhere. If there’s a seed bank, things will pop up. If it is fertile, things will pop up. It’ll pop up all year long. till winter when the always pulling some pioneer plant out of there. How could you have a cornfield with nothing green in it, because it’s not fertile. It’s not a living ecosystem. There’s something wrong With that cornfield, yeah, it will grow corn when you plant the corn, and you put all of that fertilizer in it. But it doesn’t grow things naturally. It looks like Mordor. It’s crazy.

Scott Hambrick 55:16
Yeah, it’s pretty weird. In the animal why chapter two, he makes an economic argument here about why why do it this way. His margins are much higher. He doesn’t have giant tractors. He doesn’t feed a bunch of hay, he doesn’t buy nitrogen, his margins are higher. So there’s the economic that’s basically the economic argument. upcycle waste streams, he says, and this is really his idea of using these different animals to to use everything. I mean, he he doesn’t buy fence posts, either he uses all cedar only or locust, you know, post office, his office, his property. He leaves nothing on Done. Most of his outbuildings are all mobile. So if he needs to, if he doesn’t like where something is, he doesn’t tear it down. He just hooks chain on it and drags it somewhere else. So he’s very, very frugal in chapter three is about manure, which is really about chapter three. Section three hears about, you know, finding your own nitrogen. Four is about having the animals do as much work as is for you as possible. And he loves to have a chicken you know, agitate litter, agitate mulch or wood chips. He loves to have a pig route through wood chips and air ate his compost for him. He wants the animals to do as much of the work as possible. Well, that’s smart. Very smart.

Karl Schudt 56:43
Well, if you think about it, the way a forest works the way a prairie works just on a smaller scale nobody has to maintain the prairie at least in the old days. Nobody did. Yeah. Maintain itself.

Scott Hambrick 57:01
He likes to do food storage on the earth. Yeah, yeah, we kill one eat one. And you don’t

Karl Schudt 57:09
have to refrigerate it if it’s walking around. Yeah, yeah, I thought that was interesting. Like the the popularity of chickens as as the bird that we typically farm and eat, you know, rather than quail or something. Because the chicken is one meal. Yeah, of course. My wife tells stories of her grandmother you know, it’s time for dinner. It’s time for dinner she got get a chicken and wring its neck and pluck it and bring it in and there’s your dinner. That’s the way they used to live. Yep. Now we have Tyson do it for us and wrap it in plastic.

Scott Hambrick 57:48
Beef cattle is pretty new. Beef doesn’t lend itself to smoking and curing like pork does. And as a result, most cattle were really for milking. And you know, your beef. Your beef would be from young steers that weren’t suitable for milking or calls. You know, you can read about in 1800s people eat and Longhorns. They’re tough is shitty, wild animals basically. And, you know, the idea that we have these beef breeds now is really pretty new. Because it because it doesn’t cure. There wasn’t an economic demand for them, because you’d have to eat a whole cow. That’s why they killed the fatted calf. So it wasn’t a full cow. It was a calf. Not serving size. No, personal nutrition, Carl,

Karl Schudt 58:43
right. You need refrigeration to have large scale to have large scale beef consumption.

Scott Hambrick 58:49
Then he talks about personal nutrition, emotional conviviality. The personal nutrition thing is big for me. We’ll talk about that some more here later. It’s an hour and six minutes in We’re on chapter three page 24 of 399 pages. Yeah, pitfalls. I mean, we can just go quickly here, I think through some of this, and then still talk about some interesting things. You don’t want the animals to get out. You know, it’s you don’t want to scrimp on the infrastructure before you get the animals you don’t want them to get out. You want to make sure you’ve got water. You want to make sure that you have good genetics, that you’re not buying somebody else’s rangy ass call animals, and you don’t want exotic genetics either. You don’t want a bunch of weird breeds don’t buy the Scottish Highland cow because they’re cute and you live in Amarillo. It’s too hot. Yeah, avoid the pet mentality. Make sure they get a good diet. He spells all this out. I love it. strategic considerations Chapter Four crawl this is one of them. It was most helpful for me On Page 45, he says, in all caps, do not order broiler chicks until you have your processing situation settled. That means personnel infrastructure and final storage. He talks about that some more in other places, in pastured poultry profits, he talks about that to the Cornish cross chicken takes eight weeks to maturity. He says, Have the brooder pin built, the broiler shelters built, have all your processing equipment, know what day you’re going to do it, who you’re going to do it with, where you’re going to put the birds after they’re dead. He also says by all of the feed that they will need for those eight weeks up front. You don’t want your plucking machine to be backordered. Now you have 75 birds to pluck by hand, which would take an army of people two days. You don’t want a bunch of six week old birds. And you run out of feed and you can’t get more, you know, and so on. That advice for me was worth the price of the book.

Karl Schudt 1:01:12
These are the sorts of things that if you are thinking of doing this sort of thing, you need somebody to tell you. Yeah,

Scott Hambrick 1:01:19
because you think oh, I’ll get it. Eight weeks is fast, man, those little chicks show up and you’re cutting their heads off cutting their throats. Eight weeks later, I mean, you know, we got laundry laser out of here,

Karl Schudt 1:01:31
about as fast as a radish. Yeah, that’s what

Scott Hambrick 1:01:35
there’s another consequence of this. It’s just a really interesting. So you say self, I’m going to raise 300 broiler chickens. Well, they need about 12 pounds of feed each. So that’s 3600 or, yeah, 3600 pounds of feed, go down to Stillwater milling down here and go order it for 23 cents a pound. Got my boiler shelter built, I got my stuff, I got everything, I got the shrink wrap the shrink plastic bags to put them in when we get them butchered, and you dip them in hot water and it seals up. You know exactly what your cost is. Before you put the cheeks under the heat lamp. That is, that is the I deal business situation. I have never had a business where I knew my costs. Before, before I even turned the tap. That is unbelievable. That you don’t know your revenue, right? Like all the chicks could die. You might you know, who knows? Right? I mean, you can have losses, but you do know all your costs, which is the cost of the chicken. It’s moving them every day, you can estimate that very closely. That’s, that is a special business opportunity. You know, I was talking to one daughters about this. said you know what, if you’ve got your old man’s got some land, I was telling him. And let’s say you’ve got 10 grand, we could walk that backwards and figure out how many boiler chicks you could operate on from your 10 grand. And you almost can’t go bankrupt. You might not make anything. But you just You mean you can raise? I don’t know, some like 1800 broiler chicks on 10 grand up front. And your risk for business venture is really minimal. The birds might all die, but you didn’t have to borrow anything. You don’t have open ended expenses that could jump up like there’s not gonna be vet bills for the fucking chickens. You know?

Karl Schudt 1:03:47
Yeah. Now you’re talking about doing this as a business. You got to figure out how many I think in Oklahoma you can do 500

Scott Hambrick 1:03:56
Oh, I think it’s four and a half to

Karl Schudt 1:04:00
I thought I looked it up. But if you just did 50 You can make a smaller shelter. You don’t need as much feed. You do 50 And you do it successfully. You’ve got a chicken every week of the year for your family. Yeah, at what five bucks a chicken,

Scott Hambrick 1:04:19
I think that are all in cost. No, not are all in cost, excuse me. Cost of the chick. Cost of the chick and the feed is going to run about $6. The plucker in the scholar is not cheap. The broiler shelters aren’t cheap, even though they are you know, they look inexpensive. They’re there, dude. I mean, they’re not cheap lumber. Yeah, so you’re gonna have about $6 in that particular bird, and then other costs have to be amortized in there. But yeah, so I was talking about running it as a business. Well, even if you’ve got 50 Karl Karl my academic friend You’re going to do it for your home. That’s a business with one customer. You know, if you’re like, if you say, Hey, we’re gonna raise beefs for the family, you don’t know what your costs are. You really don’t. I mean, this is so, so much less risky than, you know, operating beef. Even for even for the home scale, it’s really it’s a closed system. That’s economically it’s really great. Well, it’s

Karl Schudt 1:05:29
not it’s not quite closed because you’re bringing feed in from the outside. Well,

Scott Hambrick 1:05:35
under solid solitons Yes, but under solitons method economically. Once the chicks get there, you’ve already got the feed, it’s closed at that point. You shouldn’t be getting in your pocket again.

Karl Schudt 1:05:48
Well, and you can think of the the what is it? 23 cents a pound. You can get the chicken feed that you’re buying. You can think what I really buying is compost for my garden. Yeah. You know, because the feed that doesn’t turn to the meat that you eat is going to be making your soil fertility higher. Which means you grow better carrots

Scott Hambrick 1:06:14
Yeah, you do the pasture walk with Mr. Judy. Every time he sees a cow pie he points he says that’s $1 that’s $1 that’s $1.

Karl Schudt 1:06:27
Ketchup Berta. If times get really tough, that’s what I hear. Buffalo chips.

Scott Hambrick 1:06:31
Don’t smoke your ribs over. It’s gross. Doesn’t work.

Karl Schudt 1:06:39
Somebody wants to try that.

Scott Hambrick 1:06:41
don’t do that. It’s not good.