Aquinas's Commentary On The Metaphysics

#148- Rule of Saint Benedict Part 2

Scott and Karl finish discussing the Rule of Saint Benedict, written over 1,500 years ago.

Benedict’s careful and comprehensive Rules outline a monastic day of work, prayer, and contemplation.  Karl says, “If you’re going to do work and prayer, which is the Benedictine motto, this is a really great way to keep people working hard for lifetimes and have a life that they don’t hate.”

The benefits that the Benedictine way of life can have on your day-to-day routine are hard to ignore. Prayer for Benedict was marked by regularity and fidelity, not mood or convenience. The spiritual life was something to be worked at, not merely hoped for. Scott says, “My days will be more regimented after reading this.”

The duo also chews on how this structure, however simple and pure, is really civilization-building. Scott adds, “You can point to Benedict when the trains run on time. There’s a thread somehow between those two things.”

The Rule of Saint Benedict survives as a masterpiece of spiritual wisdom which is as meaningful today as it was when it was written in the sixth century. Tune in for Part Two of the duo’s discussion on the Benedictine way of life, brought to you by


Scott Hambrick 0:09
Welcome to the online great books podcast brought to you by online great where we talk about the good life, the great books, great conversation, and great ideas

Brett Veinotte 0:30
Hello, dear listener, this is Brett and welcome back to the online great books podcast. This week, Scott and Karl continue their discussion of the monastic experience in great detail in practical detail this time, as they continue to explore the 1500-year-old book, the Rule of Saint Benedict, this show picks up right where we left off last week. And even though enrollment in online grade books is now closed, please remember to go to online great books calm and get on the mailing list so you can get updates towards the end of this show. Scott and Karl actually start to just contemplate some format changes for the podcasts and I said, Oh, that’s interesting. I can’t wait to see where that goes. So if you feel the same way, please get involved. Stay up to date. And thank you as always for your time and attention. Here we go with the continuation of the rule of Saint Benedict.

Karl Schudt 1:26
We should probably get to some of the practical stuff. Chapter Six restraints of speech. We absolutely condemn vulgarity and gossip and talk leading the laughter Well, vulgarity and gossip probably we can get rid of gossip is just curiosity that doesn’t have a good end. Why do you need to know your neighbors business? Is this so you can help your neighbor? It’s just so you can laugh at your neighbor?

Scott Hambrick 1:48
Yeah. Shot in Freud.

Karl Schudt 1:52
They do this divide office. I thought this was interesting. So we should explain what that is. The main job of the monks, at least a Benedictine monks and Christian monks in general. Heck, monks in general, is prayer. Seems like a strange thing to be your main job. But it is so they treat it as a job there are. Let’s see seven times a day. It’s good work. They’re going to be in chapel. Yeah, seven times a day they’re going to be in chapel, lords prime tourist sext none Vespers competent. So lords are the praises at the morning, you wake up maybe early in the morning and you pray praise God a lot. And then prime is the first hour so you count your hours from the when the sun comes out. So prime is the first hour that’d be about 6am. Or depending whenever Dawn is in your time of year. Terce is the third that would be about nine o’clock, sext is noon. None or Mid-afternoon is three o’clock. Vespers is you know when you light the lamps. And then compline is just before bed. And then they’ll get up in the middle of the night. So I guess there’s eight times but that one doesn’t count because it’s seven times a day. And then once at night, bonus round. Yeah, and I thought, I mean, there’s lots of, for me practical, like historical interest here. The amount of songs that they do in the middle of the night gets longer when they go into winter.

Scott Hambrick 3:20
Because the nights longer.

Karl Schudt 3:23
Because the nights are longer. You have six hours of night, six hours a day, but they’re much longer hours at night. No 12 hours a night, 12 hours a day. But they are much longer at night. So it’s very practical. He’s, he’s not saying you’re going to do the Psalms all through the year. Now that it’s winter time. We need to change the numbers and work out how to get through 150 songs in a week. I like the bit they wake up in the middle of the night. Why do you wake up in the middle of the night? Well, because if you’re in even Italy is pretty far north. If it’s winter, then you go to bed when the lights go out. Focus lighting costs money, and you’re not going to sleep for 18 hours.

Scott Hambrick 4:05
He says by sleeping until a little past the middle of the night the brothers can arise with their food fully digested. Yeah.

Karl Schudt 4:13
I know that. In some of the wingnut areas of the internet I go to there’s been interest in in recovering this kind of, of sleep. We have kind of artificial schedule. Because we don’t depend on external light. Maybe we’ll need to recover this once the power grid goes down.

Scott Hambrick 4:30
There are people who don’t know about your wingnut parts of the internet. There are lots of accounts of the two sleeps to read medieval writings and letters and things. People would know artificial light so they have a more circadian natural sleep and people would wake up at midnight one two in the morning and maybe go outside and go for a walk. There are some letters are written in London during the day The plague, or people would wake up in the middle of night and go outside, maybe play a game of dice and so on, and other people were milling around. And then they would be up for a short time. And then they would go, maybe an hour, maybe two hours, then go back to bed and get up again. And so these monks are doing that. Does everybody know does everybody that’s listening, Carl, do they know that the clock was the development of the clock was largely driven by these monks so they could run their divine office and get it all done on time?

Karl Schudt 5:33
Probably don’t? The earliest clock in the modern sense was from 960, made by a pope who was a Benedictine monk, before he became Pope,

Scott Hambrick 5:45
in who else is keeping appointments? Right? This book was written a little bit before 547, who’s keeping appointments? Who needs a clock? Everybody’s agrarian who needs a clock? People navigating by ocean and these guys, that’s it.

Karl Schudt 6:01
Right? And in the Mediterranean, you didn’t need one to navigate by the ocean.

Scott Hambrick 6:05
Right? So it’s these guys, these guys one of the clock, he talks about how, where is it? Where is it? Oh, here it is. Chapter 11. The celebration of vigils on Sunday right at the end of it, he says the arrangement for Sunday vigil should be followed at all times, summer and winter, unless God forbid the monks happen to arise too late. In that case, the readings or responses all have to be shortened. Let special special care be taken that this not happen. But if it does the monk at fault is to make do satisfaction to God in the oratory. Again, if you believe this, then it has to be the most important thing in the cosmos. So to do it, right is the most important thing. So if you oversleep the nighttime Divine Office, you failed in a catastrophic way. You have to make it right.

Karl Schudt 6:55
Yeah, I find something else interesting about this. So if you have the seven times a day, so you know, 6am 9am, noon, 3pm. And then a few more other times throughout the day that you’re going to get a break. Okay, this is agricultural work, labor, picking rocks up and making fences. It wasn’t so bad, because every couple of hours, the bell rings, and you get to stop. So I mean, I was thinking, I use a technique when I have a whole bunch of work to do I, what I’m just I really need to get it done, I’ll use the Pomodoro technique where you named after a little tomato timer, a little kitchen timer, and you set it for 25 minutes, and you just do the thing that you’re going to do for 25 minutes, until it dings and then you can stop and check your email if you need to. But you don’t get back to work. Well, if you are a monk living under the rule of Saint Benedict, you’re not going to be slaving away all day in the field. You’re going to be working for two and a half hours. Then you’re going to go pray in the cool of the chapel. And then you might have a meal, whatever the meals are and then you’re going to go work again and then you’ll have time at lunch they have time for a nap I love that. After lunch they can go laid out or read if they like maybe private projects or something but your your work day is divided up. It is you think this monastic life is so hard. If you work in a cubicle farm, your life is harder, you don’t get the breaks,

Scott Hambrick 8:27
you get a 15 minute break every four hours. If you work more than x hours, you get a lunch break and so on. And that’s what people do. My day was structured that way for a long time. Why don’t have to structure it that way now. And I’ve had to I’ve had to figure it out. I’ve had to figure out a way to do something to do better, you know, not kill myself across the Chris Christmas break. I had three teenage boys as helpers. I had hired him up and we were doing tearing up old fans and stuff like that. We would work until the top of the hour and then it was a 10 minute break. And then we went to the top of the next hour and a 10 minute break so we’re working 15 minutes with 10 minute breaks. That’s more than the Department of Labor would have you do we could go all day in terrible cold weather or you know doing rough work. We can do that all day every day. Mm hmm. might not get as much done on this day short term as I would otherwise but I can we can do that all darn day and we would take our lunches to So eat and really take very long away it just all sit by the store, woodstove in here and visitation and then on top of the hour right back at it. Mm hmm. Yep. And in that first hour after lunch, by the way a stinker because that’s actually a 60 minute work hour. And you could tell we can tell. Yeah, so

Karl Schudt 9:53
it makes sense that this is a part of this is the practical consideration. The Benedict wanted to get you through There’s 150 songs in the Bible. He wants to get you through all 150 songs every week. The anchorites the hermit’s, they would do it every day, the Benedictines would do it every week, I think modern, at least Roman Catholics, they kind of get through it every four weeks. Because we’re a degenerate age. So that’s the plan. But it’s not. That’s not just the plan. It’s not just let’s go pray the Psalms. It also divides up the day. If you’re going to do work in prayer, which is the Benedictine motto. This is a really good way to keep people working hard for lifetimes, and being able to continue and do it and have a life that they don’t hate. Yeah, we have a painting in our house and my wife likes. I like it, too. It’s a painting of The Angelus is this husband and wife on the field, he’s got his hat off, they both have the heads bowed and, and you know, there’s a church tower off in the distance. And what they used to do is they would ring a bell, it’s it’s kind of it’s a, it’s a Roman Catholic parents Angelus, it’s a recollection of the, the Annunciation takes five minutes to say it. And everyone who do it, whenever the bell rang at noon, well means everybody gets a break. And we we’ve gotten waste from from such culture wide customs, for sure. Gosh, the old days, places used to be closed on Sundays. And you’d say, well, it’s good. They can stay open on Sundays, because free trade and all of that, but it means somebody’s got to work on the Sunday,

Scott Hambrick 11:35
man. Okay, close this book girl. Here at Oklahoma, we had these laws where liquor store couldn’t be open on holidays. certain holidays, Sundays or election days, liquor store couldn’t be open. And you couldn’t buy liquor, which was anything with alcohol greater than 3.2%. Outside of a liquor store, a package store, we might call up somewhere else. Well, I don’t know when it was three, four or five years ago, something like that. They change the law. And now the liquor stores can be open on Sundays. And if I was a liquor store owner, I would have bucked against that with all of my mind. In fact, I probably would be closed on. I think having a weekly Sabbath is a very good thing. But economically, it is like, is there anybody that buys less wine? Because the store is not open on Sunday? Or do you just buy seven once a week? So you have one every day? Like? Did their sales go up? No, their sales went up? None. But you know what, good go up. The air conditioning bill, the pay roll the wear and tear on the toilets from all the people flushing them and cleaning the place at the end of the work day. They just prorated out that all that business over seven days instead of six, what would be perfect would be the old timey market day, where everybody comes in on Wednesday. And everybody sells everything they’re gonna sell in four hours and then closes up and goes about the rest of their life. Mm hmm. Am I an integralist? Karl, am I an old timey integral list?

Karl Schudt 13:13
For certainly, it’s hard to think that somebody couldn’t plan his drinking far enough ahead of command should get enough liquor. And if you can’t plan your drinking ahead, then probably that Sunday, where it’s closed is a good thing for you,

Scott Hambrick 13:27
right? I’m not even going to make the stupid internalist argument about it being improving the people though it might be just like, there’s no rationale for being open on Sunday. It’s just dumb. For something like liquor, it’s just dumb.

Karl Schudt 13:40
Well, you can think of what happened in, in medieval Europe. With all the feast days, there were a whole bunch of feast days upon which you could not make war. And you couldn’t mean you had days off. You had all of these days off. What these were like, this is like labor negotiations except nobody’s able to argue with with God in it. So every seven days, you get a day off. inheritance from the from the Hebrews. The Sabbath Rest is kind of an innovation. Nobody else had it. The jubilees the debt forgiveness, oh my gosh, how horrible that would be. And yeah, it’s religious. Chesterton says somewhere, ethics begins in the presence of the sacred. And I the older I’ve gotten. I’ve gotten the more I think that’s probably true. So having a day that is a day where you you’re not supposed to work. Oh, no, it’s an infliction on my rights. No, no, no, you’re thinking of it wrong. You don’t have to work this day. Because otherwise your works in expand 30 days a month for you know, it is 60 hours a week. And you know, your phone is always gonna ping you with a work email, and nobody’s ever gonna leave you alone. We could use a little bit of a Benedictine rule here to say no, these are the times when we’re not going to mess with you. These are the times

Scott Hambrick 15:07
what Listen, your job sucks. Dear listener, you hate it. You hate your job anyway. So what if you put in your email signature? I never respond to emails after X pm and before a 6am? or on weekends? What if you did that?

Karl Schudt 15:23
No, they would fire you because you’re unavailable. Now, if you lived in a culture where there was a, you know, culture wide prohibition, you don’t need to put that in your email.

Scott Hambrick 15:36
I say you should do it anyway. I think you should do it anyway. Yeah. We’ve got to be more willing to be fired. But you know, around how it’s dishonorable to be out of work. You know, people have got debts, and they need to, they need to keep that money coming in so that they can muku with kids, bro. You know, they can do what they want to my body all the answer emails at midnight. Listen, brother Abbott, Father Abbott. He can’t make you work on Sunday, or during the hours. He can’t make you do that stuff. And I know we don’t have that sort of prohibitions like culturally. But like, what if? Because it’s so hard for people to find employees now and all that? What if you just took a little initiative and just assumed you had a little more leverage than you used to? Just don’t listen, hey, or just pick up the phone, maybe don’t even put it in their email, pick up the phone and say, Hey, Steve, email me after dinner every day. I got a I got an old lady and some kids. I’ll catch you on that. And at 8am in the morning. Don’t don’t email that to me anymore. If you do just know it’s going in the queue for tomorrow morning.

Karl Schudt 16:42
Well, but you know, why? Why could you possibly not do the work that I need for you to do right now? And your answers? Well, it’s family. Well, but everyone else does that even say, you’re gonna have to step out and say, No, this is

Scott Hambrick 16:57
you don’t even have to give it an excuse. You’re like, you pay me x. And you don’t own every minute of my day. I’m sorry. I want to do a good job for you. But not on Thursday at 9:52pm.

Karl Schudt 17:09
Yeah, if you had a more culture wide understanding of holidays, and time off, which, you know, there’s benighted middle, medieval stead. You know, if you had as many days off as they had the Middle Ages, you’d have vacations all the time. It’s the thing that as we got into the industrial revolution, we got rid of it because we didn’t understand it. All we understood it fully. The ones that let it get. Yeah, maybe. Yeah,

Scott Hambrick 17:38
we got played. Hey, listen. So I hope a bunch of you. Heck, I hope one of you or more will say, Hey, Steve, email me at night all the time. I’ve been answering that that was a mistake on my part. I want to do a good job during the hours of work. I have other things other responsibilities, and I will attend to your emails promptly at 8am During Monday through Friday. Thank you for your consideration. I will talk to you at work tomorrow. Have some have some damn, have some damn boundaries, guys. That’d be good. I love the regimentation. And this is a European thing to the regimentation in this thing, like these people they, they’ve gotten every day is the same. Like a lot of people wouldn’t like that, but sounds wonderful. Every day is the same, you know, and they’re like, this is my time for reading. I this is this is how I sleep. This is where I sleep. These are the things I do that that sort of regularity. I’m no monk, I’m not gonna go down and bang on the door for four days and enjoin. But you do for some

Karl Schudt 18:45
problem is the problem is you’d have to bring charity with you, and they’d probably a

Scott Hambrick 18:50
big problem, she’s a problem. But I think we can all do for some more regularity. I should, after reading this, I have decided that I am going to schedule my days a little better than I have been, I’m not going to be a Benedictine. 100%. But my days, my days will after reading this, my days will be more regimented than they were.

Karl Schudt 19:19
I think that’s good.

Scott Hambrick 19:22
Like, everybody knows this is good. Everybody knows it’s good. Like, oh, I want to get my squat up and read more this year. Well, how in the world are you going to do that? What you need to schedule at inviolable gym time? Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at 515. I squish. And then I read for 30 minutes a day before I leave for work, right? Like whatever it is. Everybody knows that if it’s important to focus on it and make time for it. Everybody knows that.

Karl Schudt 19:51
This is where I bet you if you took all these months, and you let them do whatever they want, they wouldn’t get near as much work done as required. hiring them to be in chapel seven times a day and have this ordered structure. I bet you they got more work done in the long term. I’m sure of it the way we are we have great intentions. I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that. And then I’m going to learn ancient Greek. No, you’re not. What are you going to do this? Every day at 730. Okay, that’s what you have to do, you have to make the schedule, if you wish to accomplish great things, because there’s going to be a little bit every day, if I went and got my got my Greek books out and studied. There’s no perceptible difference after at the beginning, and at the end of 30 minutes will be working on it. I can’t read Homer at the beginning, I can’t read Homer at the end. So it’s like building that law, it’s a little bit a little bit a little bit in order to do great things. You need to have the structure where you’re going to do it every day.

Scott Hambrick 20:49
No squat session means anything. So if you go, you know, and you miss a rep, or three reps, virtually irrelevant. But if you never miss a session, even if your programming is terrible, and you know, you got fibromyalgia or whatever you claim you’ve got you’ll get stronger.

Karl Schudt 21:11
Yeah. Yeah, I think that. Yes. Right. He spoiled it. But I think that’s right. I think structure is really good. If you don’t have one, you got to get one. And Benedict, Scotland right there for you.

Scott Hambrick 21:29
Yeah, that’s about civilization dealing stuff. Right. That’s one, I think that you can point to Benedict, when the trains run on time. There’s a there’s a thread somehow between between them those two things? Well, yeah,

Karl Schudt 21:42
and you know, the, the breed of cattle that you have, and you know, all of the domesticated fruit trees that you have, you know, who do you think bred those

Scott Hambrick 21:52
people that had 1000 years to make that pig fatter?

Karl Schudt 21:56
Right? If you have a 35 year lifespan, maybe? How much do you care about breeding your fruit trees? If you’re if you’re doing it for the lord of the manor, probably not that much. But if you’re if you’re part of a monastic Foundation, you’re going to say, well, the month that comes after me in your 500, probably ought to see some progress on this. And that’ll be good.

Scott Hambrick 22:20
Curl. There’s a lot of the rod in here. We need to talk yeah, there is the always say we’re supposed to talk about things that upset us. Uh huh. So Benedict, in several places, says that the abbot or the senior, almost everybody at the monastery takes their position by date that they joined. So the seniority is basically how long you’ve been there. And it’s sometimes somebody that’s a very junior monk might be elected Abbot, because they elect that guy based on his ability and his spiritual advancement, and so on. But it’s hierarchical. If somebody tells you, if one of your seniors tells you to do something, and you don’t do it, or you are continue to in your sinful ways, or whatever, they are told by Benedict, to explain to you, and then you need to do something, you need to act, right. And then they’re told to explain to you again, and so on, and they’ve got I don’t remember, I don’t know, you tell him three times, and the fourth when you go gets around you what they’re asked. And then he also says, though, like now, if they’re not real bright, or they’re too young to understand, just go ahead with them. And just start there. How about that, Carl?

Karl Schudt 23:42
Yes. Okay. So this is a voluntary association. They can always leave. So there’s that. So under the condition that you are staying in this house, there’s that and then these are the rules. Yeah, I don’t like it much either. But I thought what was interesting,

Scott Hambrick 24:00
so what you’re saying is consent is what matters here.

Karl Schudt 24:08
You can’t legitimately consent to evil. And no, consent doesn’t work.

Scott Hambrick 24:15
But you said voluntary, that implies that they consent to heaven.

Karl Schudt 24:19
Yeah, but they’re consenting to the good work of the monastery. They’re not consenting to open marriages and and Oh, I

Scott Hambrick 24:27
see. I see. Interesting.

Karl Schudt 24:31
So that’s a little bit different. But some people you can talk to and some people you can’t and so we throw it back. The here’s the puzzle you have. You have brother Seamus No, I shouldn’t do that. You have brother. You have brother? Brother Bill, who not too bright and you explain to him Listen, Bill, brother. You need to be in chapel on time. In the case of the bell ring And that means that you first bell rings, it means need to wake up. And the second bell rings, that means you need to start walking to the chapel. And if you do that, you’ll be fine. And he nods. But you can see there’s no lights on. And he keeps not getting it.

Scott Hambrick 25:15
Well, can that guy voluntarily do anything though, Carl? I mean, he’s further bill’s not very bright.

Karl Schudt 25:21
Maybe not. I am not aware of Benedictine monasteries that currently have corporal punishment. They probably don’t take in the monks that would have needed it. Right. Which, I guess there’s pluses and minuses.

Scott Hambrick 25:34
If he can’t understand the reasoning, then I guess maybe he can understand if he does that. Something will hurt.

Karl Schudt 25:41
Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, we have an idea that that everybody can be reasoned with. Oh, I know. That’s not true. And that’s not true. That’s not true. I don’t know a smack on the I don’t even know how they would have done it. Yeah, smack on the rump with a with a cane. Now go to chapel. Okay. Man, might not be the most evil of things.

Scott Hambrick 26:10
How recently was the British Navy using the lash?

Karl Schudt 26:14
within living memory? Probably.

Scott Hambrick 26:18
I would bet maybe even in World War Two, I don’t know. I think this is important. This is a voluntary thing. This is a voluntary association, these bynner and he talks about how to let people leave. Let me see here. Today did that data. Oh, and he has other 29. There are admonishments. So if you’re going to do corrective corrections, you’ll do admonishments and then later on an excommunication, that excommunication wouldn’t throw him out of the church or even out of the monastery. They just had he alone and set apart. There was sort of an ostracism and a sort of a humiliation. Maybe

Karl Schudt 26:59
if you’ve had your kids sit in the corner, you have excommunicated,

Scott Hambrick 27:03
right. excommunicated, they’re outside of the communication. Nobody was supposed to talk to them until they had made their penance and fixed it.

Karl Schudt 27:10
I had one kid I have to tell you. She stayed in that corner. She was supposed to stay in there till she apologized. She stayed in there two days. We had to let her out. She just wouldn’t do it.

Scott Hambrick 27:23
Yeah. And then we’ll do it until the earth level. She didn’t that didn’t work. So we had

Karl Schudt 27:27
she beat us. She grabbed us down. I’m sure you can guess which one it was?

Scott Hambrick 27:31
Yes. He says in the of the excommunicated. He says let him take his food alone in an amount and at a time the abbot considers appropriate for him. He should not be blessed by anyone passing by. Nor should the food that he’s given be blessed. That’s pretty heavy duty. Like if you’re one of these guys, and you buy in and these prayers are and blessings are important to you and you’re denied that that’s heavy duty. I can imagine those guys might rather be whooped than that. Hmm. That’s pretty rough. And then he says then here’s chapter 27. It’s called the Abbott’s concern for the excommunicated. I love this part. It to the habit must exercise the utmost care and concern for wayward brothers because it is not the healthy who need a physician. But the sick he quotes Matthew there. Therefore he ought to use every skill of a wise physician and send in some pic day that is mature and wise brothers, who, under the cloak of secrecy, may support the wavering brother urged him to be humble as a way of making satisfaction and consoled him lest he be overwhelmed by the by excessive sorrow. Rather, as the apostle also says, Let love for him be reaffirmed and let all play pray for him is the Abbott’s responsibility to have great concern and to act with all speed, discernment and diligence in order to not lose any of the sheep entrusted to him. He should realize that he has undertaken care of the sick, not tyranny over the healthy. Let him also fear the threat of the profit in which God says what you saw to be fat you claimed for yourselves and what was weak you cast aside, he is the imitate the living example of the Good Shepherd who led 99 sheep in the mountains and went in search of the one sheep that had strayed so great. Was his compassion for its weakness that he mercifully placed it on his sacred shoulders. So carried it back to the flock. Not a spiteful punishment. It’s not a spiteful per No.

Karl Schudt 29:27
No and and So officially, you’re not supposed to talk to the excommunicated. But secretly you do. It’s like good cop bad cop. Yep. This might be the origin of that. I kind of next time you’re at Clear Creek. I want you to to ask them any to get whipped. I was reading the rule.

Scott Hambrick 29:50
Yeah, I’ll ask you. They’ll probably say seven years ago. Can you imagine that? If you are an abbot, you’re a Benedictine Abbot. of great skill and judgment and discernment and love. Can you imagine not using that under any circumstance? Because there’s not. Not that’s not to say I’m going to beat everybody every day. But like, let’s say you’re the abbot for 41 years. Like somebody broke in to the cellar three times, and got hammered. And barked in the stalls. Yep. Now, the good Abbot would say, I should never have lent, this guy should never have been to the point. But you know what I’m saying like their stuff. Like, in the fullness of time, you’d go get go get the rod off of the hook,

Karl Schudt 30:47
what probably you’d say to the guy, look, do you stop doing this? And if he gives satisfaction, then that that’s it. But if he does it again, you gotta quit doing this? Okay, well, if you’re gonna stay here, well, you might need to get swatted. You can the door is there, you can leave. I don’t want the job.

Scott Hambrick 31:09
I don’t want the job either. There is a plate dough heiress to tilian idea that if it would be just to punish that guy. And he needs improvement than him partaking in his own punishment would have him partake in justice, which would improve his soul. Yeah. So a lot of these men, I know this is hard for the modern person to think of it’s hard for me to think of a number of them would ask for this punishment.

Karl Schudt 31:42
Or sure if the alternative was to leave, or to be excommunicated. You’d rather take your weapon and get to the dinner table, wouldn’t you?

Scott Hambrick 31:52
If a brother has been reproved frequently for any fault, or if he’s even been excommunicated, yet, just on demand, let him receive a sharper punishment that is let him feel the strokes of the rod. Yeah,

Karl Schudt 32:03
chapter 28. Sometimes you have to amputate. Sometimes you have to get rid of them. Yeah, if people leave, you can leave, you’re free to leave if a brother following his own evil ways, leaves the monastery but then wishes to return, you can come back in come back three times. But after that, sorry, if you came back the third time, you know, if you leave again, you can’t ever come back. I think that’s reasonable. Probably more reasonable than I would have done.

Scott Hambrick 32:33
When the man joins, it’s really hard. He tells you how to join, you got to go bang on the door and weep and all this stuff for like days and days. And they’ll let you in. And then they make you do all the hard work. And then they read the rule to you. And then you have to do all the hard work again. And then they read the rule to you like it takes a while they don’t they want you there. But only if you really, really, really want it. When they finally let you in. You can’t have anything and so they take your clothes and they put you in the habit and the woollen cloak and so on. But they put your clothes on a locker in case you need to leave. They give you give you a suit of clothes back in and a hedge on your way. I thought that was kind of cool, actually.

Karl Schudt 33:17
Yeah. So here’s the job. I figured you would have this is in 31. The seller, that’s the job I want. Yeah. The one who takes care of all the stuff. He’s the quartermaster. Yeah, and I really like that I wish I could. I have I have read from the rule of Saint Benedict to my children, trying to get them to do this because they break all my stuff. And bugs me, he will regard all your utensils and goods of the monastery as sacred vessels of the altar aware that nothing is to be neglected. Gosh, what that would be just a little thing to institute in a family situation. The dishes, treat them like if you go to church, you know, you treat them like the chalice. You don’t break it, you don’t throw it around. You want that thing to be there for another 500 years. There’s no reason for a plate to degrade over time. You might as well just keep it just take care don’t slam it down. Drives me or putting dishes away and I just hear the clanking

Scott Hambrick 34:21
the brothers at Clear Creek. You go sup with them. They all sit in their own place each time they have their they have their place at the dinner table. And there’s a little cubby hole where that pencil tray would be in your desk at work and you pull that skinny debt tape that skinny drawer out as the pencils on it stupid stuff in there. There’s a little cubby hole there. And they have a plate and a knife and a fork set right or is it a knife and a spoon? They don’t have a knife, a fork and a spoon. They’ve only got a knife and then one of the others it must be a spoon. Can’t remember I think the spoon has got it. stabby on the end of it. I think it’s a spork. Yeah. No, it’s not a sport like you can stab stuff with one end. It’s like a one time fork on the one end. Oh, okay spoon on the other. Like, you could go look at that old like the spoon used it communion in coordination. And that’s in the crown jewels. It’s like that one, I think I think I don’t stare at them. I’m scared to look at it. So they get their food. And then when they’re done, they are each has a cloth napkin that’s placed on their at their place. Because monks take turns serving the other men. And before you get when they get there, the the linens are laid out. And it’s just a simple cotton, unfinished piece of cloth. I mean, it’s just a square just cut with ragged edges. So they finish eating, and the guys lick their plates. And then they buffed them with this with their napkin. And they lick their spoon, and they buff it with the napkin, same with the fork, and they put it back underneath there. But it’s not theirs. It’s actually belongs to the monastery and the seller is the one that gives that to them. And if somebody was to drop a plate while passing the plates and whatever and broke it, they would have to go to the seller and get another. And I don’t know, man, he might have a freakout. I mean not to freak out, no brothers gonna have a freakout, but you might get in trouble. Or perhaps somebody slipped and it was an honest mistake, and there’s no trouble, but they take really good care of everything. People donate books to the monastery. And they’ve got two libraries, one library that I do not have access to. Which is almost enough to join. Because I’ve heard stories of it. And then I have a guest library. When people donate this books, like even if it’s a paperback book, like if you donated a book and you know they’re not going to take every donation like if you if you if you donated Angela’s Ashes and a Maya Angelou book. They wouldn’t keep them. But uh, somebody was griping about me crapping on my Angelou said it wasn’t open minded. I’m open minded. I listen. She’s no good.

Karl Schudt 37:16
I read the heck out of that poem. I tried really hard to make it make sense. I’m sorry.

Scott Hambrick 37:21
It’s just so you guys are just rude to her for like making her think she was good. Anyway, they take the books that are suitable.

Karl Schudt 37:29
She might have been good, but that one was no good. But inauguration poem is no good.

Scott Hambrick 37:34
I have no evidence that she’s any good. But even if it’s a paperback book, they completely take it apart. And rebind it so it into a hardback and make a better quality book out of it. Like even if it’s a gift to them, they redo it in such a way that it’ll last longer than it would have otherwise. And so there are books in the library in there that that were the paper is not very good. It’s one of these paperbacks, it’s you know, it’s maybe a little acidic and the papers not great. But the bindings perfect. And then if if there’s a book that’s damaged, somehow, they have a man there that fixes that book. And these you know, how much is a paperback? How much is paperback? 695. Like, like, economically, it makes zero sense. But they take care of everything. And they’re frugal, it’s all a gift to them. And they’re very frugal about it.

Karl Schudt 38:28
It’s like the boots it makes sense that you’re not going to have to buy that book again. Yeah. I love the approach to the physical belongings i i have ambitions to try to do that more in my own life. Of course, I don’t have an abbot yelling at me. They have a wooden yell. But you know, I don’t have an abbot yelling at me to take care of all this stuff. But if you think look around your house, think about all the stuff that you have. If how would it change how you took care of it if this had to last for centuries.

Scott Hambrick 39:01
There are some things I want tools to that you can’t buy anymore. And I go to like junk stores and antique stores like in rural places, trying to find the cider presses. You can’t even find this stuff. You’re gonna have to make one and then if you do it’s like it’s got to play a crucial plastic part that even if he doesn’t break because of misuse, this is going to get old and brittle and break and whenever and I don’t want to mess with it again. Like do I do I really how much time of my life do I want to spend find a replacement part for that plastic thing in the cider press? Like no time. I don’t want to do that. So yesterday, I was in this little town and stopped at two antique stores and they had a side of us and one of them. I didn’t buy because it’s still gonna be there. I gotta go contemplate it. I took pictures of it nice. work. But the screw was good. The screws the part I’m worried about.

Karl Schudt 40:05
Hmm. You need a friend who’s a blacksmith? Yeah, to make these parts, somebody’s got to get a forge and figure out how to do all that stuff. Yeah, which you know, the monastery would have. So the monastery would tend to have all of this stuff in it. The historical development of the monasteries, they would have, they would be self sufficient, they would have machine shops in them. They would be schools of agriculture, for the surrounding areas. Heck, the guy that invented genetics was a monk. I can’t remember he was Benedictine are not. Mental. Dark Ages wouldn’t weren’t all that dark, but they would have been much darker. But for the monks,

Scott Hambrick 40:45
Augustinian friar and Abbot of St. Thomas’s Eddie.

Karl Schudt 40:49
Yeah, there’s a poet named Catellus. He’s an excellent Roman poet. Just just fantastic. If you trace out the history of the text, one copy survived in a monastery library. One, it would have been gone, would know nothing of Catellus this fantastic poet, Karl civilization building.

Scott Hambrick 41:14
From the first of October to the beginning of Lent, the brothers ought to devote themselves to reading until the end of the second hour. At this time, tersus said, and they are to work at their assigned tasks until known at the first signal of the hour of non all put aside their work to be ready for the second signal. Then after their meal, they will devote themselves to their reading or to the Psalms during the days of Lent, they should be free in the morning to read until the third hour, after which they will work their assigned tasks until the end of the 10th hour during this time of Lent. Each one is to receive a book from the library and is to read the whole of it straight through these books are to be distributed at the beginning of Lent. Above all, one or two seniors must surely be deputed to make the rounds of the monastery while the brothers are reading their duty is to see that no brother is so apathetic as to waste time or engage in idle talk or neglect his reading. And so not only to harm himself, but also distract others. They’re assigned books. Yep. And they have to read the whole thing.

Karl Schudt 42:14
It’s a book club.

Scott Hambrick 42:18
The club of the book.

Karl Schudt 42:19
Yeah. So literacy scholarship. People think that civilization is easy. That it just happens. You just plant humans somewhere and civilization happens. And I don’t think it’s so easy. It takes stuff like this.

Scott Hambrick 42:36
If anyone is so remiss and indolent that he is unwilling or unable to study or to read, he has given some work in order that he may not be idle. brothers who are sick or weak should be giving a type of work or craft that will keep them busy without overwhelming them or driving them away. The habit must take their infirmities into account. Carl, my dad has multiple myeloma, he has bone cancer, and he’s been on chemotherapy. So okay, it’s all part of the game. And he has been getting bags of pecans and cracked pecans and cracks all the pecans and is picking all the goodies out of them. It’s sorting him through hours every day. Mm hmm. Yeah, he can do it. Yeah. He can do it. You know, he used to go out and his little shop every day and do something. wherever it was. Yeah, whatever little project he’s working on. It’s called Kali. It’s like 12 degrees out right now. He’s not going to go out there and stumble around out there. And so they could pecans, man. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Karl Schudt 43:49
Well, so that you’re not indolent, so that you’re doing something worthwhile.

Scott Hambrick 43:53
Yeah, but chino? Like it’s not worth it. Like he’s, he’s like the value of the pecans. I mean, he’s getting like 12 cents an hour, Carl. It’s just not worth it. Like he can.

Karl Schudt 44:03
Well, the benefit of the work is not necessarily in the value of the thing worked. There is benefit to the worker to do the work.

Scott Hambrick 44:14
Right. This is not the Calvinist idle hands are the devil’s workshop. It’s like the the work is improving. It’s not your base. And if you’re not working, you’re going to screw up though. You might the work is improving. It’s also a prayerful act for these people to Yes.

Karl Schudt 44:30
Yeah. I think that there’s a good deal of it. That is, I mean, the idle hands devil’s workshop that there is that that is true. There is it’s true. But to get to the end of the day and know that you mean what are you going to do other than crack walnuts or not walnuts? Pecans. What are you going to do other than crack pecans open? Watch. Dr. Phil.

Scott Hambrick 44:51
Well, I won’t I won’t lie. He’s probably watching something too. But, but yeah,

Karl Schudt 44:58
yeah. So if you think about Have all of the time that you spend wasting that were you a monk, the abbot would say, No, you need to do something. What What have you accomplished and all the time that you you wasted?

Scott Hambrick 45:12
My cousin is building a house. And my uncle, who’s just darn near 80. He’s built some houses and he knows some stuff. But he was an automobile wreck at the end of the summer and broke his leg. And they had to put some pins in there. It’s pretty ugly, and he had to go to physical therapy, and he’s not quite back yet. Although I think he will be. And he just goes, he goes over there. And sweeps up sawdust and picks up construction scrap. Mm hmm. What’s he supposed to do?

Karl Schudt 45:46
Do work? That is good.

Scott Hambrick 45:50
Seems like it. It’s okay. It’ll be better.

Karl Schudt 45:53
Just go do some work. All right. Oh, my everybody does kitchen service. I love that. Everybody has to serve. That’s the worst part is the kitchen stuff. They read during meals. You’ve talked about that before?

Scott Hambrick 46:11
It’s my fate. One of my favorite things in the world. Touchy love it

Karl Schudt 46:15
brothers will read and sing it. Yeah. Brothers will read a sing and sing not according to rank, but according to their ability to benefit their hearers we give you jobs because you’re the best at it.

Scott Hambrick 46:27
Yep. But if you like it too much. You don’t

Karl Schudt 46:31
stop. Yeah. Gotta stop for a while.

Scott Hambrick 46:34
I love that. I love that. Guys. They read so much. Not only read but they’re read to so much. People don’t understand. How many hours are spent on this. It’s astounding. The proper amount of food he tells you exactly how many pounds of bread and what kind of didn’t how many courses of each of these meals and so on. That’s perfect. Half a bottle of wine. Half a bottle of wine. Yeah. Trivia. Dear listener, Dom Perignon with a monk.

Karl Schudt 47:09
The guy that figured out champagne

Scott Hambrick 47:12
chartreuse? Yep. A drink. Invented by car Toosi and monks.

Karl Schudt 47:19
Shimei beer is monastery beer. Chambord probably a bunch of the cheeses that we have.

Scott Hambrick 47:26
Trappist ales, you know, come on. This is stuff, reception of guests. They have vows of of the hospitality that they have to carry out here. All guests will who present themselves to be welcomed as Christ for himself will say, I was a stranger and you welcomed me proper honor must be shown all especially to those who share our faith and to pilgrims. Once a guest has been announced the superior and the brothers are to meet him with all the courtesy of love. First of all, they are to pray together this be united in peace, but prayer must always precede the kiss of peace. Because of the delusions of the devil. All humility should be shown in addressing a guest on arrival or departure by a bow of the head or by complete prostration of the body crisis be adored because He’s indeed welcomed in them after the guests have been received. They should be invited to pray then the superior or an anointed appointed brother will sit with them the divine was read to the guest for his instruction and after that every kindness is shown to him this is a period of a break is fast for the sake of a guest unless it is a day of special fast which cannot be broken. The brothers however observe the usual fast the abbot shall pour water on the hands of the guests and the abbot with the entire community shall wash their feet they still do all this though. Clerk they don’t do the washing of the feet. And I suspect that’s because we just don’t wear sandals stuff. Let’s stuff like

Karl Schudt 48:49
that. If I wore my sandals, would they do it?

Scott Hambrick 48:53
I help not weird The Hobbit toes. So

Karl Schudt 49:00
I do not have Hobbit toes. I

Scott Hambrick 49:05
triple E super weird. The clothing and footwear of the brothers is outlined which I like the scribes artisans that there will be men who have skilled positions. Of course you have to have them in men of skill, but they are to be cautioned and disciplined in such a way that they don’t take undue pride in that I like that

Karl Schudt 49:28
there are some things which are not said but basically in one room and the lights kept on and the older kept with the young. So in other words no shenanigans can happen which is wise

Scott Hambrick 49:43
a lamp must be kept burning in the room into mourning but you know so you’re not after accomplished you’re not supposed to talk but they ring the bell and everybody has to wake up and he says on a rising for the Word of God they will quietly encourage each other for the sleepy like to make excuses.

Karl Schudt 50:04
Heck, I don’t even know where I am. And I wake up that have to say, Brother Carl, you’re a monk, you’re in a monastery. It’s the year 1248. I wouldn’t know.

Scott Hambrick 50:16
Right at the end, then with Christ help keep this little rule that we have written for beginners. After that you can plan for beginners. My buddy Carl told me that I should watch the BBC television show Tudor monastery form. Yeah, and I’ve watched that thing, man. That’s good. That’s great. The BBC has done a number of those shows. There’s a Edwardian farm. There’s Victory Garden. I can’t remember what they all are. But that was about an English monastery community, which they all were but until Henry the Eighth directed all in the center of the life of the entire community. Was the monastery. Everything go watch that show, which is a delight to watch. You’ll enjoy it.

Karl Schudt 51:01
Ruthin. What’s the guy’s name? Peter?

Scott Hambrick 51:03
I don’t know. I know. She’s Ruth Goodman. And she’s awesome. Yeah,

Karl Schudt 51:07
they’re a lot of fun.

Scott Hambrick 51:09
She’s like an archeological home economist. I think she’s made a lifetime of studying home economy in the past, awesome.

Karl Schudt 51:19
If they’re respectful of the time, so if you’re going to do I forget what year it’s like, 1590 in the show, it’s before that was before then they’re not going to make fun of these primitive. They don’t know what they’re doing. They’re going to try to live it and they’re going to show you what was good about it. And one of the things they talked about is market day. Unit where everybody goes to the town and it’s it’s kind of like a renaissance fair thing. They’re just, I mean, it’s not real, but they’re showing you what it would have been like, are you just bring bring your geese, you bring everything and, and you know, maybe go home with some mustard from some far off place. And, and they actually go into the church, and they show you what the church would have. They have church services and show you what they would have done, and it’s not so horrible. And yeah, I would have liked penicillin. I think I would have liked penicillin.

Scott Hambrick 52:11
There’s nothing about it that would preclude the discovery of penicillin. We’ve talked about this. I’m trying I’m looking at right now, when Henry dissolved the monasteries and stole them.

Karl Schudt 52:21
Yeah, so you should know this. The history of England was very monastic. Pope Gregory sent Benedictine monks, I think, to England. So Augustine of Canterbury was a Benedictine, I think. And so Benedictine foundations were were there. Well, they aren’t anymore. There might be some now. But what happened was when Henry the Eighth made himself ahead of the Church of England, probably the thing that really solidified that the change was that they took all the goodies from the monasteries, and gave him to the novels. If you watched Downton Abbey, which my wife loved, I watched it until they killed off that one character and then I couldn’t handle anymore. But it wasn’t Abby. It was an abbey that some rich family got when Henry the Eighth took it from the monks. So all of those places that are called Abbey,

Scott Hambrick 53:19
at the Grange, all these monasteries owned 1000s of acres, in the aggregate millions of acres probably and that was all distributed.

Karl Schudt 53:27
Why would a an autocrat need to get rid of the monasteries?

Scott Hambrick 53:33
All the reasons? Well, they’re in the way. Yeah, he just wants to be unaccountable, irresponsible with the dissolution of suppression of the monasteries was an administrative and legal process between 1536 and 1541. So tutor monastery farm is about the era before that. So maybe it’s Henry, the seventh rain, whatever. So it’s the early 1500s. But that show does a really good job of describing what the economy was like, you know, if you wanted to make fine wool for export, not common trade market day, you would have to bring it to the Abbey, and there will expert would approve it or not, and then help you get a broader market. So that’s one of the thing I think that’s one of the things that we’re really concerned about is like raising this really, this high, this higher grade or higher quality set of products, that the monastery would then help them distribute outside of the regular market day where they could get a higher price, not just a higher price, there would be a larger demand to, you know, the little the little community they lived in, they only needed those people only wanted to buy so many turnips or so many, so many pounds of wool, and they could get a broader market with higher prices and sell a higher quantity outside. That church was the center of every thing. Everybody in that neighborhood could hear the bills, and they could govern their day by that same bell that told for all those benediction Brothers to go to the hours, feast days, these people did not work as many days and as many hours as we do, you know, all this idea about this Better Living Through science and, you know, pursuing your they worked less than we do guys in this show just shows you and the whole basis of that economy, which built Europe from 500 until the mid 1500s. It’s Carl, I think ethic, I think it’s our thesis, that it derives from the role of Benedict in the in the practices in those monasteries. Mm hmm. recovery of the classical tradition from the Romans and the Greeks was actively done in the monasteries. The monasteries might have gotten hold of transcripts that, that some of the, the Abba Sena and some of the Moors had gotten hold of, but they are the ones that did the translation work. They’re the one that did the copying work, and they are the ones that eventually did the commentaries, like Aquinas is commentary on the metaphysics that changed the way Europeans think and make Europeans have a pistol Knology their brains work differently in 1500, than they did anywhere else in the world. I’m convinced of it. And it’s because of the education that they had created for. They had recovered and then furthered and created for themselves.

Karl Schudt 56:24
Yeah, we might be sounding kind of nostalgic here. But I tell you go read. The Scholastic’s weren’t all Benedictines, but, or even largely Benedictines, but if you think you’re smart guy, if you think you’re smart, all right. Okay. Go read yourself some John Duns Scotus or some Thomas Aquinas or Peter Lombard and see if you can hang Bet you can’t.

Scott Hambrick 56:47
Now I just put together a great car. I think I’ve told you this. Three other guys and myself have undertook to work through Aquinas, little Summa, over the next two years, we’re going to be we’re going to read roughly 20 to 25 chapters of the little Summa perma and to meet once a month and discuss it. And one of the guys in there said, Oh, my gosh, he was looking at the Thomistic Institute website. He’s like, Oh, my gosh, how many pages? How many? How many books of this guy, right? It’s like, it’s like, I don’t know, Carl, was it like 28,000 pages or something like that? I mean,

Karl Schudt 57:26
I worked it out. At one point he at his peak, he was writing something like something like 28 pages a day of single spaced, really high quality, academic work.

Scott Hambrick 57:37
Oh, it’s unbelievable, which if you’ve

Karl Schudt 57:39
ever tried, when I was writing my dissertation, which was not the highest quality academic work, I was lucky to get a page a day, I was kind of slow, but to do 28. Big brain. He started as a Benedictine, by the way. He was going to be a Benedictine monk and then ran away to be a Dominican. And was at Monte Cassino, which is Benedictine abbey, which there was a huge battle in World War Two, by the way. They blew it up. So it’s been rebuilt.

Scott Hambrick 58:12
You’re talking about big brain? Thomas, supposedly, with dict. He had five scribes that worked for him, and he would dictate five books at a time. Yep.

Karl Schudt 58:22
And in fairness, not a Benedictine, but growing right out of that tradition and using their libraries. And yeah, and so I’m an historic, you know, and I like I love Tudor monastery farm, I might watch it again, just sit with a beverage and, and feel cozy. I don’t know that you can go back. Of course not. But the way forward might be enlightened by thinking about the way things used to be. And maybe even on the small scale in your community or with your friends, you can do Association, voluntary associations like this, for common goods with rules, I think would be great.

Scott Hambrick 58:57
One of our internet friends, Karl, he calls it the integral list impulse to go back to this and to become a NEO Amish and Institute reinstitute a Sabbath and the orders and so on, is like voluntarily relegating yourself to serfdom. Yeah, I’ve seen that. What do you say to this?

Karl Schudt 59:18
I say I can see the point going and joining the potato off and, you know, running off and planting potatoes and seems like a retreat. And I would rather think of it as building a fortress. You need a place for people to thrive in order to come and transform it and make things better. So you got to have the people. If he’s right

Scott Hambrick 59:46
about the retreating, I don’t know that his retreat, I would say to him, or anyone else that postulates that is that we’re already serves, but you can go be a wage serf on the other guys farm, or you can at least sharecropper, your own piece of dirt, I would say we already are. But I would say that there’s more freedom and agency and self fulfillment in the potato, often, the potato of often. I think that this culture comes out of these folkways work, ways of spiritual ways, Indian etc, you need those things. And then some geniuses like geniuses of intellect and geniuses of will. And we got it, we’ve got to have folk ways, work ways, and spiritual ways. So that the genius of will and the genius of intellect has got a foundation that they have a substrate. Mm hmm. So what’s the genius of intellect or the genius of will going to do in the world of Blade Runner? There’s only violence at that point. That’s, that’s all there can be.

Karl Schudt 1:00:56
Yeah, well, I don’t know what’s coming. I don’t know. I mean, it feels like it feels like the end of the age, in a lot of ways. It feels like things are running down. Something new needs to come. That’s where the, the Catholic integral list is kind of empty. But let’s just go back to and I love Latin. Let’s just go back to that. And everything would be great. No, maybe you should go back to Latin. But that’s not going to make everything great. It has to be new. I don’t know how it’s going to be new.

Scott Hambrick 1:01:25
I don’t know how it’s gonna be new either. But, you know, I think something wonderful and beautiful came out of the medievals in the medieval era was created. By picking up that classical tradition from the Greeks and the Romans, and then synthesizing and expanding it. They didn’t go back to become Greek that they synthesized and expanded, they

Karl Schudt 1:01:47
didn’t go back to become Roman, they became something else. So whatever is going to come is going to be something else.

Scott Hambrick 1:01:52
And and I hope that is built on an objective philosophy, like scholasticism with whatever new is added in as necessary. Yep. I think that’s where it’s gonna be.

Karl Schudt 1:02:08
Yep, first step, smash. All the cell phones.

Scott Hambrick 1:02:11
Can’t. Hey, they’re listening to us on cell phones right now, man. Oh, no,

Karl Schudt 1:02:14
wait, take that out. Don’t put that on it.

Scott Hambrick 1:02:17
Yeah, go ahead and do that. Have I gotten you to be a scholastic yet? Are you still this continental guy?

Karl Schudt 1:02:26
I have read a whole bunch of scholastics Well, I

Scott Hambrick 1:02:30
know you’ve read them but are you one like I’ve read I like I think I’ve read Anton Jose. But what

Karl Schudt 1:02:35
makes my heart skip a beat is more likely Kierkegaard or God helped me.

Scott Hambrick 1:02:43
Lord. Okay. Well, there’s that little book.

Karl Schudt 1:02:48
Well, we talked about it for a long time.

Scott Hambrick 1:02:50
Yeah, we talked to us. It’s a short little thing. I don’t think we did a good job guys. Just read it. It doesn’t matter what we said. It’s so short. Like it’s there’s no reason for you to not read it.

Karl Schudt 1:03:01
It is foundational. Everybody says it’s about books. But this one really is. Its foundational. I don’t know if it counts as great in its literary quality, but certainly in its influence on civilization, you probably ought to have read it at one point. It’ll take you two hours. You get through it.

Scott Hambrick 1:03:17
And even if you are like oh, there you go, there they go with papers garbage again. Somebody is a leader of people and somebody who wants a more ordered purposeful pointed life could benefit from Rena.

Karl Schudt 1:03:31
Hey, you Protestants you want to make monasteries Go ahead?

Scott Hambrick 1:03:35
Yeah, Darya Go ahead. Nobody stopping. Yeah, and then we’re gonna read a little Walker Percy lost in the cosmos. Right. Yeah.

Karl Schudt 1:03:43
Yeah, lost in the cosmos, the last self help book. It is not a novel. It is not a philosophy book. It is a series of I believe 20 questions to post yourself. And I think it’s hilarious and a lot of fun. And I’m really excited to inflict it on Scott Hamrick.

Scott Hambrick 1:04:05
So I look forward to it. You know, I always, always enjoy. Brother Walker. And then after that, we’ll read the subversive Joel solitons. Book, new book Polyface. Micro? Sure. Sure. Look forward to I want to I want to learn a whole bunch from that thing. I know I am. Now Karl’s looking at his phone. Oh, my. I’ve been running this discussion group. I don’t like great books about the great books method. And last last meeting, we discussed the Hutchins kind of essay maybe booklet called the great conversation. I think we need to talk about that one at some point. It’s not a heavy lift 4050 pages, but it’s it’s interesting, in a lot of ways.

Karl Schudt 1:04:57
It’s prepared.

Scott Hambrick 1:04:59
It’s pretty weird. What else you want talk about?

Karl Schudt 1:05:02
Oh, I don’t know. That’s like, we’re already three, three shows ahead. We should do something light like decline and fall of the Roman Empire.

Scott Hambrick 1:05:10
Oh, well, I want to do that. I was wanting to do the one on weapon systems or maybe the Anglo American Alliance. Like it we you know,

Karl Schudt 1:05:19
technology and warfare. Yeah.

Scott Hambrick 1:05:23
But here’s something I was thinking about. I was I was driving my Ford F 250. home today. You know, the Shelby Foote show. The first episode is our most downloaded show. Like it’s smashed all the records, Karl. I haven’t seen the numbers on the second show yet. And I don’t know, I’m not real pleased with how that went when I could. I think I could have done better. But that was nice. But everybody knew that that was gonna take a long time. I don’t know if it’s was, if it’s because it was about the Civil War, or if it was because it was Shelby Foote, or it’s because we hyped it for so long, or what. But I thought, I wonder if it would be a good idea to take this show in more of a sort of Dan Carlin kind of direction. Not that I want to be like a moderate Boomer and say nothing interesting, but that we do fewer but bigger shows? I don’t know. I don’t know. It would be interesting to see what people thought

Karl Schudt 1:06:24
that would require us to have a plan. So uncle Brett said, because I know that I know. He’s doing the introductions. I actually listened to our show now. I don’t listen to me or you. I just listened to Brett’s introductions. Where he says he suspects there’ll be other Shelby Foote shows.

Scott Hambrick 1:06:45
guess we like to call Shelby so much. But like, yeah, implies that we might know what we were going to do. But maybe we could say okay, we’re going to do six shows on the gibbons book, or, or we’re going to do three shows on tragedy and hope the Carroll Quigley book or? You know, I don’t know. I don’t know. But no, we’ve been trying to intersperse something kind of heavy with, you know, Benedict’s rule at, you know, 35 pages or something like that. And I don’t know. It’d be interesting to see what people say about that. And for me, I need to think about it. I don’t I don’t know that. That’s the way to go. But it would be. It could be interesting.

Karl Schudt 1:07:25
I’m a first nothing Silmarillion.

Scott Hambrick 1:07:28
Yeah. Karl settled 1000 pages. Now, it’s

Karl Schudt 1:07:33
not that long. Yeah. would break your heart like?

Scott Hambrick 1:07:37
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that could be okay. Like that. We could do some more ambitious things. If we went and did that, you know, and we’re not pregnant with any of it. We could just say, hey, there’s only gonna be four shows between now and Memorial Day. And they’re going to be over this break. And then we’ll go back to our regular schedule. You know, I don’t know.

Karl Schudt 1:07:57
I don’t know. Let me chew on it. Yeah, well

Scott Hambrick 1:08:00
think about it. We could do anything we want to do, because we didn’t take the ticket. We didn’t sign a contract with Spotify, where they say you have to do this many shows this year. And we like this format, where they’re 52 to 109 minutes, and you can do whatever we want to do,

Karl Schudt 1:08:16
man. Yes, but then freedom opens up ahead of you like an abyss,

Scott Hambrick 1:08:21
right? Well, I’m standing at the edge of the bed and I just wanted to jump man. I’m looking for a rope you know we’re here shilling for all this heavy duty great books money.

Karl Schudt 1:08:29
Yeah, there’s a huge amount of money that is pouring into the great books industry. Yeah, my goodness. It’s like Big Pharma big great books.

Scott Hambrick 1:08:39
Big great books. Alright, there’s that. You can email me at Scott at online great books. Calm. What’d you think of that? And, like father Abbott, I will listen to all of your counsel. And then Karl and I will make the right decision and then you must abide by it. Thanks for listening.


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